The only thing necessary for the persistence of evil is for enough good people to do nothing

Sweden Halts Asylum Returns

Back in March 2008, a Swedish court ruled against sending an Iraqi man back to Greece to apply for asylum (under the Dublin II Agreement), on the grounds that he might not recieve proper treatment here. The country has now suspended all returns (article at the BBC) to Greece saying that the situation for asylum seekers has deteriorated. Sweden has followed the example of Norway, Finland and recently, Austria.

36 Comments

  1. Guardian are Greek haters
    November 5, 2010    

    What a load of self-righteous crock. All those governments (none of whom border third of second world countries) could have been accepting illegals for years but instead hide behind the Dublin II agreement (i.e. dumping virtually all of the EU illegals back on to Greece).

    Now that the results of their policy are being evident some are unfairly try to pawn off the situation as somehow entirely the fault of Greece. (rather than the EU as a whole-much like some Americans want to blame Arizona or Texas for illegal immigration problems rather than look at the problem from holistic standpoint)

    Just to be clear Diva, it’s not that everything negative you say about Greece is necessarily wrong (not that your analysis is all right either) but your focus on constantly ONLY picking out negative stories on Greece is what marks you as harboring prejudices against Greeks Diva. (i.e. only reporting the negative about someone is exactly what demonization is all about)

    Why exactly is it virtually every last story on this blog is focused on painting Greece in negative light Diva? Can’t you find positive stories in Greece, pop 10M, to write about? And how is it you can’t you find any negative stories on England? (or any other country for that matter?) Are you saying England and other EU nations don’t have negative aspects to them? Or how about the Roma? Nothing negative to say about them?

    (e.g. just from just yesterday – yet you find no interest to post such stories?)
    “A ten-year-old girl gave birth last week in the city of Jerez de la Frontera, in southern Spain. Mother and baby are reportedly in good health. Is this the youngest-ever mother in Europe?”

    “The girl is a Romanian gypsy who arrived in Spain with her mother just three weeks ago, so that she could have her baby there. The mother, who identified herself as Olimpia, has said that she is “delighted” to have a new granddaughter, adding that they plan to stay in Spain, and that the father of the baby, age 13, is no longer in the picture.”

    “Olimpia also said that she doesn’t understand what all the fuss is about because she and her daughter are Romanian Gypsies and their culture allows girls to marry young even though it’s against the law in Romania.”
    http://www.care2.com/causes/womens-rights/blog/ten-year-old-gives-birth-in-spain/

    That’s why I continue to think you harbour SEVERE prejudices against the Greek people Diva (or at least any Greek that’s not willing to participate in your personal campaign to endlessly demonize their country). You may claim otherwise but your constant over-the-top vitriol against specifically Greeks speaks volumes about you.

    I would review the titles and contents of the vast majority of your articles to see if I’m exaggerating about what I say about your behavior. Even the title of this blog “The only thing necessary for the peristance of evil….” in seeming reference to Greece… is incredibly offensive. (given your entire blog seems devoted to portraying Greece in only a negative light)

    The irony is you claim to support “human rights”… yet seemingly exclude Greeks from being human too. (and feign innocence and personal victimhood when someone like me calls out your abusive behavior)

    Any how I’ve said what I’ve wanted to say and don’t to spend even a second more on anyone who’s sole focus in life seems to be promoting ethnic hatred against Greeks.

    You are welcome to prove me wrong by showing even a small semblance of an even handed approach with your criticism (by also writing negative things about all the minorities you claim to protect as well as the nations they come from-or even writing positive articles about Greece) but you are so deep into your personal prejudices I doubt you are capable.

  2. Guardian are Greek haters
    November 5, 2010    

    Before I go, real world evidence of your cognitive biases at work

    You claim to support “human rights” yet your focus the last few articles has been on the conditions for illegal immigrants in Greece…. while you ignore an obvious case of wholesale torture going on? (including seemingly the governments of the US and UK being complicit)

    “The US and Iraq should investigate claims of abuse contained in files published on the Wikileaks website, the UN’s rights chief says. Navi Pillay said the files suggested US forces had continued to hand detainees to Iraqi authorities despite evidence that they had been tortured.”
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-11632839

    Which iis the more morally reprehensible position Diva?

    A. A poorer nation with a very low murder rate (i.e. in practice minorities are safer in Greece than iin America) and small population in the midst of a severe economic crisis that can’t handle a massive influx of illegals being dumped on it?

    or
    B
    . A nation that participated in a war built on outright fraudulent claims (has Blair found those WMDs yet?)… that lead to the unnecessary DEATHS and suffering of hundreds of thousands of Iraqis (some of whom I imagine make up some of the refugees Greece is facing due to political instability triggered by the US and UK in particular)…. and a serious conscious breach in the Geneva and UN conventions against torture (and we are talking outright torture here… i.e. war crimes).

    Of course your prejudices (and your pompous self-righteous attitude) prevent you from seeing the hypocrisy of your endless vitriol against Greeks. If not, where might I ask are all your posts criticizing England dear Diva? After all, the only thing necessary for the persistence of evil is for good people to do nothing.

    (and to anyone else English reading this, this isn’t an attack on everyone English. Please just listen to how I sound when I criticize England. Imagine if I devoted a blog solely to finding stories that paint England in a negative light.. every single day for years on end…. then you’ll understand exactly how far leftists like Diva that endlessly demonize Greeks sound like to me)

  3. Post Disagreement
    November 5, 2010    

    Not really in her defense, but I will point out that this is a blog supposedly about human rights in Greece, and like the news, its usually going to be bad news or offer up negative interpretation of the facts.

    A nice school boy helping an old lady cross the street is not going to make news.

    However, my issue here is a bit different from “Guardian are Greek haters”

    I have seen on this blog Diva present articles supporting a so-called Macedonian ethnicity,
    Mass illegal immigration, granting citizenship to people just because they were born in Greece, etc.

    Macedonian ethnicity is a fake construct…those people are slavs not descendants of the peoples associated with Alexander the Great and the ancient kingdom of Macedonia.
    These FYROMians are now actively promoting irredentist propoganda seeking to combine their land with our Province of Macedonia.

    Mass immigration is undesirable phenomena for such a small country with a very low birth rate… This country was founded as a Greek State.. which to me means while historical minorities may have a place here this is understood to be the homeland of the Greeks not the dumping ground for failed societies that breed one dozen children per couple regardless of their circumstances.

    Do I think Greece should accept SOME asylum seekers YES.

    How many can it take and the government and society support? that’s the question
    right now is the worst time because of the financial crisis..I would say close to zero of any new border crashers..perhaps the existing border crashers who live here now should be examined after a set number is determined to be allowed entrance.

    i.e we say 1,000 – 2,000 people and if 50,000 apply and all 50,000 are eligible then we say okay fine but we will only let 2,000 stay the other 48,000 need to go home or to Turkey or the other EU states must take them end of story.

    ts shameful that no of the Muslim countries are granting asylum to their co-religionists.

    The needs of asylum seekers is secondary to the will / desire of the society to accept
    them in their numbers…if we do not want 100,000 people a year thats our choice if we are kind enough to accept even 1,000 thats our choice.

  4. GGH
    November 6, 2010    

    I know you think she means well (she probably does) but I have to dramatically disagree. Meaning well and doing well are two distinct issues. A “human rights” blog doesn’t mean someone has moral license to demonize an entire people day-in-day-out for years on end. (or else be prepared for others they recklessly wholesale negative stereotype to call out their prejudices)

    Actual human rights groups (like HRW and Amnesty international whom I don’t always necessarily agree with but everyone makes mistakes and I see as more legitimate)…. don’t just level all their criticisms on a single people. (and they also notice mark improvements) They also tend to consider their choices of words carefully.

    I’m not buying Diva’s line of “human rights” for as long as she stays silent about far more serious human rights violations in other countries (including by the nations of some of the minorities she allegedly protects).

    She doesn’t say squat about the UK’s military adventurism and possible involvement in torture in Iraq (which isn’t that surprising seeing as she say’s she’s English)

    She stays silent about FYROM’s absurd attempt to rebrand themselves into “ancient macedonians” and proclaim Macedonia Greece “occupied”).

    She finds any ridiculously phrased over-the-top criticisms of Greeks she can find to criticize Greece with (seemingly the worse the better)

    That does add up to “human rights’. That’s just someone looking to rant against someone else due to their personal prejudices. Human rights deals with rational and even handed criticisms. Its not a blanket form to demonize others.

    In my opinion, the rampant hatred that some far leftists have unleashed on Greece the last few years (sadly including by some far leftist Greek citizens – see Helsinki Greece that claim to be a human rights organization yet constantly uses offensive negative stereotypes when describing Greeks in their reporting)… are largely responsible for many Greece’s problems today.

    The far leftists that are to blame for the massive government debt (since they are the ones that always pressure the government to spend money-even if we don’t have it) Far leftists are responsible for virtually every terrorist act in Greece for decades (that destroys our international image). Far leftists are the Greeks that call FYROM “Macedonians” (much like the communists did during the Greek civil war). Far leftists were the ones that though Stalin was a good idea (triggering 120,000 dead). Far leftists are the one’s that join self-proclaimed “human rights” groups whose sole purpose appears to demonize other Greeks. (see Helsinki Greece which is a joke)

    Greek children are taught by far leftists to hate their own country. They are encouraged to make absurd mental associations that Greece is “fascist” (sort of like how some Republicans label Obama as “fascist”). Millions of people being slaughtered in no shape or form represents the relatively safe environment for minorities in Greece (relative to most of this world statistically speaking)

    I’m sick and tired of all the self-righteous ranting anti-Greek haters. I really wish more politically moderate Greeks (the majority I think) voiced their concerns publicly against both the far left troublemakers in their midst (and far right too but they are far fewer in numbers). Only by finally being vocal can we ever hope to win the minds of the young. (to keep them away from both far left and right extremists poisoning the political dialog
    in Greece)

  5. A concerned citizen
    November 6, 2010    

    As I read the above comments, they are saying that non-Greeks residing in Greece don’t have the right to (correctly) comment on the serious problems of Greece at this time, without:

    (a) continuously pointing out that other countries have similar or other problems, relating to human rights

    (b) supporting Greek nationalist claims vis-a-vis the region formerly known as Macedonia in the Ottoman period and part of which was invaded and annexed by Greece in 1912

    THAT IS A PILE OF RACIST CRAP. SORRY. It just shows how intolerant you are of anything that doesn’t support exactly your viewpoint.

    [Let’s wait to hear from the poutsomalaka in England, who always sides with Greeks on these things]

  6. A concerned citizen
    November 6, 2010    

    For the benefit of those asking for foreign and/or positive stories, here’s an interesting case from the UK of how to deal with corrupt politics. Take note, our Greek friends: instead of toadying to corruption and power at every opportunity, try upholding the rule of law.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2010/nov/05/phil-woolas-ejected-parliament-election

  7. GGH
    November 6, 2010    

    @a concerned liar

    “non-Greeks residing in Greece don’t have the right to (correctly) comment on the serious problems of Greece at this time”

    Blah blah. Check again. Nowhere do I or anyone else say what you claim we say.

    Yet another slanderous straw man that just further demonstrates you harbour prejudices against Greeks You clearly mistake the words “human rights” for the moral license to spend every day of your life scanning the news to find things to insult about Greeks. That’s not “human rights:” bubba…. that’s you trying to spread ethnic hatred against Greeks by demonizing them.

    “Human rights’ deals with issues beyond your own specific ethnicity as well as people beyond Greeks. Capeche? So why aren’t you spending any energy protesting against atrocities by people committed around the world? Why don’t you spend time writing about human rights violations in your original homeland? Amazing how see only Greece, pop10M, as the biggest problem in this world. (virtually all your complaints are directed against Greece right?)

    “supporting Greek nationalist claims vis-a-vis the region formerly known as Macedonia in the Ottoman period and part of which was invaded and annexed by Greece in 1912. THAT IS A PILE OF RACIST CRAP. SORRY. It just shows how intolerant you are of anything that doesn’t support exactly your viewpoint.”

    Your bizarre version of history telling is just another example of your own prejudices against Greeks at work. You are just manipulativing the terms “racism” to silence objections by any Greek.

    The region was OFFICIALLY known as Rumelia in th 19th century and was not part of some illusionary Macedonian state. FYROM”s capital’s name was officially a turkish Uskub. (which our Slavic neighbours official renamed into Skopje) The TURKS owned the region at the time not some illusionary “ethnic Macedonians” (essentially ethnic Bulgarians that just renamed themselves “ethnic Macedonians” in the late 19th century).

    Greek, Bulgarian, Serbs and Turks all fought one another for pieces of the crumbling Ottoman empire and the Bulgarians saw renaming as a method to establish control over the whole region… at the expense of other elasticities living there. The plan failed because it was only a small number that participated (Bulgarians Delchev, Gruev, Misirkob, el al of BMARC/IMRO and because the powers at the time easily saw through the manipulation by Bulgaria)

    Nowhere in the treaty that was signed to end the Balkan conflict is there a single mention of “ethnic Macedonians”. How is that possible they weren’t even at the table if they were the dominate ethnic consciousness in the region champ? Were all the great powers at the time part of the conspiracy against “ethnic Macedonians”? How is it possible that census takers (from many nations using many methodologies) missed the existence of a million “ethnic Macedonians” the FYROM government today claims existed?

    Even the US (and UK) governments in 1944 claimed there was no such ethnic group or nation as “Macedonian” (they were still mostly ethnic Bulgarians looking to create a Macedonian state back them). At the time they called Tito’s renaming of Vardar Yugoslavia into the “Socialist Republic of Macedonia” communist demagoguery.

    “This (US) government considers talk of Macedonian “nation,” Macedonian “Fatherland,” or Macedonian “national consciousness” to be unjustified demagoguery representing no ethnic nor political reality, and sees in its present revival a possible cloak for aggressive intentions against Greece.” (Secretary of State Edward R. Stettinius, Jr, Dec. 26, 1944)

    Or are you accusing the US, UK and other western nations of being complicit in an attempted genocide against so-called “ethnic Macedonians” at the time? (since they are the ones that supplied Greece the weapons to expel IMRO communist terrorists and denied the existence of “eEthnic Macedonians” right?)

    Your endless vitriol against Greeks, your endless supply of half-truths, marks your alleged concerns for “human rights’ as just someone that manipulates the words to hide your own personal nationalist agenda (in someone else’s country no less)

    If were truly concerned about Greece you would protect it (much like immigrants to America become Americans with time and protect American interests). Very few Greeks object to immigrants that seek the interests of Greece and truly wish to integrate. What Greeks object to are the hateful trollers with a chip on their shoulders that seemingly only know how to complain about Greeks rather than contribute to the community they live in.

    Most Greeks are not racists as you attempt to repeatedly unfairly portray them. Hellenization is part of our culture since the time of Alexander (who straying from Aristotle’s strictly Greek race view of Hellenism). Greeks just want to preserve the Greek character of Greece (much like Germans wish to keep the German one… England… English… Turkey… Turkish.. China…Chinese… Mexico… Mexican… America… American…. … and so on.

    Does an American today reference himself as “British” or “Bulgarian” because some of their ancestors might have originally been from those nations? No. They call themselves Americans and they seek American interests. There is room to allow immigrants to adjust (and even keep their original identity if they wish) but if you have no intention whatsoever of becoming genuine Greek citizens concerned for other citizens in your country what exactly are you doing in Greece?

    I truly believe in human rights but I don’t believe anyone truly concerned with human rights would spend day-after-day ONLY bashing ONLY a single people (while ignoring the rest of the world) You really need to make your mind what you want for your life and stop hatefully blaming Greeks for your own personal problems and indecision. Everyone is responsible for their own choices.

    If you hate Greece so much please feel free to get the hell out and move back to wherever you came from. If your home country was so so much better than Greece why not go back? Has anyone forced you to stay? Or are you saying you prefer Greece over where you came from?

  8. GGH
    November 6, 2010    

    btw – I don’t know if “a concerned citizen” actually lives in Greece. If he does, then I stick to every word I said above. If we doesn’t, and yet he spends his life trolling blogs specifically to harass Greeks (pop.10M), aside from his nasty prejudices against Greeks he probably has some sort of nationalist or far leftist agenda.

    Based on his about comments on FYROM, I wouldn’t be at all surprised if he was from FYROM (I’ll I can’t be sure) since FYROM nationalists troll the internet bad mouthing Greeks any way they can, because Greece wouldn’t recognize their faked hsitory as “ancient Macedonians”.

    e.g.
    “and Uskub, the great majority of the population is Slavic, […] the middle ages until 1913 called themselves and were called by their neighbors Bulgarians.” (George Hubbard Blakeslee, “The Journal of International Relations”)

    e.g.
    * Modern Slavs, both Bulgarians and Macedonians, cannot establish a link with antiquity, as the Slavs entered the Balkans centuries after the demise of the ancient Macedonian kingdom. Only the most radical Slavic factions—mostly émigrés in the United States, Canada, and Australia—even attempt to establish a connection to antiquity […] The twentieth-century development of a Macedonian ethnicity, and its recent evolution into independent statehood following the collapse of the Yugoslav state in 1991, has followed a rocky road. In order to survive the vicissitudes of Balkan history and politics, the Macedonians, who have had no history, need one. They reside in a territory once part of a famous ancient kingdom, which has borne the Macedonian name as a region ever since and was called ”Macedonia” for nearly half a century as part of Yugoslavia. And they speak a language now recognized by most linguists outside Bulgaria, Serbia, and Greece as a south Slavic language separate from Slovenian, Serbo-Croatian, and Bulgarian. Their own so-called Macedonian ethnicity had evolved for more than a century, and thus it seemed natural and appropriate for them to call the new nation “Macedonia” and to attempt to provide some cultural references to bolster ethnic survival.(Eugene N. Borza, “Macedonia Redux”, in “The Eye Expanded: life and the arts in Greco-Roman Antiquity”, ed. Frances B Tichener & Richard F. Moorton, University of California Press, 1999)

    “Macedonia was also an attempt at a multicultural society. Here the fragments are just about holding together, although the cement that binds them is an unreliable mixture of propaganda and myth. The Macedonian language has been created, some rather misty history involving Tsar Samuel, probably a Bulgarian, and Alexander the Great, almost certainly a Greek, has been invented, and the name Macedonia has been adopted. Do we destroy these myths or live with them? Apparently these “radical Slavic factions” decided to live with their myths and lies for the constant amusement of the rest of the world…” (T.J. Winnifrith, “Shattered Eagles, Balkan Fragments”, Duckworth,1995)

    e.g
    “The Macedonian nationalists quite simply stole all of Bulgarian historical argument concerning Macedonia, substituting Macedonian for Bulgarian ethnic tags in the story. Thus Kuber formed a Macedonian tribal alliance in the late seventh century; Kliment and Naum were Macedonians and not Bulgarians; the medieval archbishop-patriarchate of Ohrid, which Kliment led, was a Macedonian, not a Bulgarian independent church, as shown by the persistence of Glagolitic letters in the region in the face of the Cyrillic that were spawned in Bulgaria; and the renowned Samuil led a great Macedonian, rather than a western Bulgarian, state against Byzantium (giving Slav Macedonia its apex in the historical sun). (Dennis P. Hupchick, “Conflict and Chaos in Eastern Europe”, Palgrave Macmillan, 1995).

    It’s sad that certain self-proclaimed human rights organizations (like the self-righteous far leftist creeps at Helsinki Greece that effectively lie through their teeth vis-a-vis seemingly conscious omission of the facts)…. have conveniently “forgotten” what FYROM’s own government representatives used to claim to the world about their own ethnic identity only a few years ago. (prior to widespread recognitions… when Greeks used to tell our critics they were lying and were ridiculed by many that claimed it was just a silly dispute over a name)

    *We do not claim to be descendants of Alexander the Great …; Greece is Macedonia’s second largest trading partner, and its number one investor. Instead of opting for war, we have chosen the mediation of the United Nations, with talks on the ambassadorial level under Mr. Vance and Mr. Nemitz… we are Slavs and we speak a Slav language.” (Ljubica Achevska, FYROM Ambassador to the US, reply to a question about the ethnic origin of the people of FYROM, January 22, 1999)

    *We are not related to the northern Greeks who produced leaders like Philip and Alexander the Great. We are Slavs and our language is closely related to Bulgarian. There is some confusion about our identity.”(Gyordan Veselinov, (Referring to the citizens of FYROM) Ottawa Citizen, February 24, 1999)

    “We are Slavs who came to this area in the sixth century (AD)… we are not descendants of the ancient Macedonians.” (Kiro Gligorov, first democraticaly elected president of FYROM, referring to the citizens of his country), Foreign Information Service Daily Report, Eastern Europe, February 26, 1992

    etc… etc..

    How is it possible so many people have “forgotten” what ELECTED FYROM government officials used to claim about their identity only a few years ago? How is it possible that major US and UK media outlets (like the Guardian) don’t report what their own nations used to deny the existence of “ethnic Macedonians” only a few decades ago?

    e.g.

    “The Department has noted with considerable apprehension increasing propaganda rumors and semi-official statements in favor of an autonomous Macedonia, emanating principally from Bulgaria, but also from Yugoslav Partisan and other sources, with the implication that Greek territory would be included in the projected state. This Government considers talk of Macedonian “nation”, Macedonian “Fatherland”, or Macedonia “national consciousness” to be unjustified demagoguery representing no ethnic nor political reality, and sees in its present revival a possible cloak for aggressive intentions against Greece.”

    “The approved policy of this Government is to oppose any revival of the Macedonian issue as related to Greece. The Greek section of Macedonia is largely inhabited by Greeks, and the Greek people are almost unanimously opposed to the creation of a Macedonian state. Allegations of serious Greek participation in any such agitation can be assumed to be false. This (US) Government would regard as responsible any Government or group of Governments tolerating or encouraging menacing or aggressive acts of “Macedonian Forces” against Greece.:

    * U.S STATE DEPARTMENT Foreign Relations Vol. VIII Washington D.C. Circular Airgram (868.014/26 Dec. 1944)
    ……….
    Where is the reporting on the the views of HUNDREDS of well accredited historians on this issue? (including professors from some of the most prestigious universities in the world, Oxford, Cambridge, Princeton, Harvard to name a few)

    “On November 4, 2004, two days after the re-election of President George W. Bush, his administration unilaterally recognized the “Republic of Macedonia”. This action not only abrogated geographic and historic fact, but it also has unleashed a dangerous epidemic of historical revisionism, of which the most obvious symptom is the misappropriation by the government in Skopje of the most famous of Macedonians, Alexander the Great […] We do not understand how the modern inhabitants of ancient Paionia (FYROM), who speak Slavic – a language introduced into the Balkans about a millennium after the death of Alexander – can claim him as their national hero. Alexander the Great was thoroughly and indisputably Greek. His great-great-great grandfather, Alexander I, competed in the Olympic Games where participation was limited to Greeks […] We call upon you, Mr. President, to help – in whatever ways you deem appropriate – the government in Skopje to understand that it cannot build a national identity at the expense of historic truth. Our common international society cannot survive when history is ignored, much less when history is fabricated.: (Letter to President Barack Obama”, signed by 369 accredited classicists and university professors from around the globe)
    ……….
    e.g.
    “We are Bulgarians, more Bulgarians than the Bulgarians in Bulgaria themselves. And, anyway, what sort of new Macedonian nation can this be when we and our fathers and grandfathers and great-grandfathers have always been called Bulgarians?” (ethnic BULGARIAN Krste Misirkov, “On Macedonian Matters”, Macedonian Review Editions 1974, (Sofia 1903)
    ………..
    US Antropologists Loring Danforth is a long time FYROM supporter. He has written many books and letters in support of FYROM over the years. He has ridicoulously claiming to human rights organizations and media outlets that there was scholarly “consensus” (his word) that ancient Macedonians weren’t Greek’s. He even has letter on one of FYROM’s self-proclaimed “human rights” organizations. (basically a front for FYROM ultra nationalists) Clearly not someone in Greece’s corner… yet lets see what even Mr. Danforth writes about FYROM’s new found “ancient Macedonian” identity.

    “The history of the construction of a Macedonian national identity does not begin with Alexander the Great in the fourth century B.C. or with Saints Cyril and Methodius in the ninth century A.D. as Macedonian nationalist historians often claim.”(Loring Danforth, “The Macedonian Conflict: Ethnic Nationalism in a Transnational World”, Princeton Univ Press, (December 1995), p.56

    “Finally, Krste Misirkov, who had clearly developed a strong sense of his own personal national identity as a Macedonian and who outspokenly and unambiguously called for Macedonian linguistic and national separatism, acknowledged that a Macedonian national identity was a relatively recent historical development.” (Loring Danforth, “The Macedonian Conflict: Ethnic Nationalism in a Transnational World”, Princeton Univ Press, (December 1995), p.63)

    “The political and military leaders of the Slavs of Macedonia at the turn of the century seem not to have heard Misirkov’s call for a separate Macedonian national identity; they continued to identify themselves in a national sense as Bulgarians rather than Macedonians.”(Loring Danforth, “The Macedonian Conflict: Ethnic Nationalism in a Transnational World”, Princeton Univ Press, (December 1995), p.64

    etc… etc..
    ………….

    Greeks are not without fault (as our government fiances shows) but if anyone can claim persecution these day its Greeks. Our very identity is being handing over by Greek haters to the former self-identifying ethnic Bulgarians of the former Yugoslavia. (I wish them luck trying to get ancient Macedonian artifacts to eventually rewrite themselves from Greek into the Bulgarian dialect the communists modified and renamed “Macedonian”)

    Is FYROM cherishing their ethnic Bulgarian roots so terrible that they need to harass Macedonians for their identity? How is it morally tolerable in the 21st century for a new 19 year old nation (situated primarily in ancient Paoeonia I would note) to attempt attempt to steal the identity and threaten the sovereignty of another… while those that claim to support HUMAN rights stay silent?

    http://www.google.ca/images?um=1&hl=en&biw=1797&bih=952&tbs=isch%3A1&sa=1&q=united+macedonia&aq=f&aqi=g2&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=

    Where are those that claim to support “human rights” when it comes time to protecting the rights of Greeks against the obvious historical fabrications and irredentist behavior of FYROM based on that faked history? Don’t Greeks have a right to their identity and human rights too?

  9. A concerned citizen
    November 6, 2010    

    Methinks thou doth protest too much…

    Yes, I live in Greece, GGH, since 1995 (on and off). I have never visited the Republic of Macedonia, and have not relationship with it. Maybe you should think a little more, before you spout off. There is nothing in my comments that is historically incorrect, yet you took offence.

    And i stick by my assertion that you are denying foreigners the right to speak about Greece. I can tell you that this is commonplace even amongst Greek academics, who try to stifle genuine academic research on Greece and especially by expert “outsiders”.

    You might care to ask yourself why…

  10. GGH
    November 6, 2010    

    @concerned liar

    Your evasion of my countless points further demonstrates you harbour prejudices against Greeks. (and I would note you call FYROM “Republic of Macedonia”… rather than Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia)

    You are just repeating yourself by restating the false claim I deny foreigners to speak about Greeks. I fully support your right to free speech. I also support mine. And here is mine in a nutshelll.

    I just don’t take the complaints of obvious Greek-haters very seriously. People like you just hide your hatred and prejudices by behind the words “human rights”. No one would spend every day talking smack about some ethnic group unless they had a problem with that one ethnic group. There are other people on this earth to complain about than just Greeks. Get a life hater.

  11. A concerned citizen
    November 7, 2010    

    As far as I am concerned, greeks are not an ethnic group. They are a mix of albanians, vlachs, christian turks, slavs, and god knows what. I have nothing against greeks or anyone else. This is your nationalistic delusion.

    And you clearly don’t support the right of free speech, so cut the crap. You just know that it wouldn’t look good to admit it.

  12. GGH
    November 7, 2010    

    @As far as I am concerned, greeks are not an ethnic group.

    Finally the truth comes out. A racist that denies the Greek ethnic identity. Surprise surprise. Of course we are an ethnic group you a**hole.

    Why don’t you explain to us what an ethnicity represents to us lowly peasant Greeks dear? I welcome you to examine the DNA of Germans, Jews and other ethnic groups around the planet to see if their are any pure races based on national lines champ.
    http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-08-24/hitler-dna-tests-show-he-likely-had-jewish-african-roots-daily-mail-says.html

    And have you evert bothered to do a DNA test on yourself (or others) to see if your DNA (or others) are match your claimed ancestors perfectly? What exactly is it you have in common with your claimed ancestors that Greeks don’t have in spades over you?

    “And you clearly don’t support the right of free speech, so cut the crap. You just know that it wouldn’t look good to admit it.”

    More libelous bull crap from a liar and racist. You just can’t stand it that someone Greek is finally calling out your hate.

  13. GGH
    November 7, 2010    

    See what I mean Diva? I’m not imagining that Greeks are facing persecution. I couldn’t believe it myself at first but this has been going on for to long to be just my imagination. Look at the kind of people the rampant vitriol attracts. A racist that claims to support “human rights”… then denies Greeks are an ethnic group?

    This is all largely the fault of those that recognized the former self-identifying ethnic Bulgarians of the former Yugoslavians as “Macedonians'”. They are now forced to find ways to deny the ethnicity of Greeks to cover up their shame for recognizing FYROM (when we warned them FYROM was lying) This is why the same “human rights” and media outlets that call FYROM “Macedonians”… ALL hide any discussion of past claims of FYROM’s own government officials or even past claims by the US and UK governments about FYROM)

    e.g
    “The Department has noted with considerable apprehension increasing propaganda rumors and semi-official statements in favor of an autonomous Macedonia, emanating principally from Bulgaria, but also from Yugoslav Partisan and other sources, with the implication that Greek territory would be included in the projected state. This Government considers talk of Macedonian “nation”, Macedonian “Fatherland”, or Macedonia “national consciousness” to be unjustified demagoguery representing no ethnic nor political reality, and sees in its present revival a possible cloak for aggressive intentions against Greece.”

    e.g.
    *We do not claim to be descendants of Alexander the Great …; Greece is Macedonia’s second largest trading partner, and its number one investor. Instead of opting for war, we have chosen the mediation of the United Nations, with talks on the ambassadorial level under Mr. Vance and Mr. Nemitz… we are Slavs and we speak a Slav language.” (Ljubica Achevska, FYROM Ambassador to the US, reply to a question about the ethnic origin of the people of FYROM, January 22, 1999)

    I believe in genuine human rights but demonizing Greeks and now seemingly even trying to ethnically cleanse us out of the existence isn’t part of that equation. Greeks are human too.

  14. Post Disagreement
    November 7, 2010    

    @concerned citizen also known as Xenos aka MBE 😉

    By saying Greeks are not an ethnicity you are denying ethnic identity of a group.

    Much as Turkey had a policy (still has?) of referring to Kurds as mountain turks denying their unique ethnic identity.

    While I agree its possible that modern Greeks have had admixtures with others over time I do believe the evidence suggests that modern Greeks do share in heritage and blood a connection to the ancient Greeks and Romans. I do not believe that there is much Turkic blood because Turks were Muslims and usually if a Greek/Christian of any stripe married a Turk they became Muslim and eventually their descendants identified as Turks.

    to me the relationship of Greece to Turkey is on one level like Spain to Latin America.

    There are many different heritages there (latin america and Turkey) but there are varying strains from pure to mixed to zero percent spaniard/greek blood but not much the other way around.

    So your thesis that Greeks are Albanians, Turks etc. anything but Greeks is racist and denying the ethnic identity of Greeks.

    When you defend the positions of Slavs who claim to be descendants the ancient Macedonians and their fictions of a genocide against them by Greeks in our province by that name you are really being hypocritical.

    Finally, our neighbors that may have mixed with us have some shared history and culture with us, Africans, Afghanis, Somalis and Chinese do not. so they are not easily assimilateable and neither do we have an obligation to embrace hordes of peoples esp in this economic crisis.

  15. A concerned citizen
    November 7, 2010    

    I said “as far as I am concerned”. That does not mean you don’t have the right to claim whatever identity you think you have. It also means that Macedonians have the right to claim whatever invented identity they think they have. My personal views are not imposed on others (unlike the Greek views).

    I would say that the Kurdish identity is probably more likely to exist in reality, since Kurdish was never a language spoken by non-Kurds and the tribal nature of the society excluded newcomers. Obviously, Kurdish is a much older identity than Turkish. So, all this talk about identity from nation-states is pure fiction. It reflects military and political power, and has little or nothing to do with history or genetics.

    The “not easily assimilable” argument is the post-Nazi excuse for racism and is well-known in Europe. I would advise against using it. And Greece’s international obligations are not cancelled by virtue of decades of Greek corruption and financial mismanagement. If anything, such obligations are increased when the country is caught up in international debt and humiliation.

  16. GGH
    November 7, 2010    

    @Post Disagreement:

    Notice how he can’t help end up shoveling some sort of dirt at Greeks? (e.g He just threw in our current financial crisis into a discussion that has little to do with anything on the thread)

    He also writes “I’ll this talk about identity from nation-states is pure fiction”

    The above statement pretty much sums up his gibberish outlook. He even contradicts himself

    First he states Greeks “are a mix of albanians, vlachs, christian turks, slavs, and god knows what” (implying those ethnic identities are “real” whereas that of ethnic Greeks is not)

    Then he suggests his own identity is real! (since he previously calls himself a foreigner rather than a Greek… implicitly suggesting he has an national identity beyond Greece).

    Our national identity is “pure fiction” though.

    I have no clue how Greece let Greek hating ethnic denying clowns like this into the country (which only makes for more headache for Greeks to worry about). Didn’t we get enough of this sort of harassment with the Nazis and communists?

    The Greek government is much nicer about it than I would be. It it were up to me, I’d handle it exactly like the Russians, Israelis and Americans do. Label him a security threat then have Greek security forces escort him to the border. Sayonara. Let him rant about Greeks from afar. (since he clearly finds Greece and Greeks so horrible we’d be doing him a favour right?)

    As for the current illegals problem (I just saw a Australian program that estimated them at between 1.2 -1.5 million using Helsinki as a reference)…. I would ask other EU nations if they were willing to accept some of them. If not, I would start working with the EU towards deporting most of them to country of origin (although we should try and keep the best educated and productive ones). The longer we put this off the worse its going to get for both Greece and the EU. (since they’ll just have babies and encourage more relatives to come…leading to even larger numbers) The numbers are just way too much for a tiny country like Greece to deal with (sort of like 35 million Mexicans showing up illegally in America)

    Some will criticize such a move as “racism” but I don’t see how credible any of that criticism would be when they all refused to accept them themselves (not to mention they all tried to skirt responsibility for the load by dumping them back on Greece all these years).

    Perhaps Greece should consider introducing some sort of American style pledge of allegiance for new immigrants before giving them citizenship? (to weed out the troublemakers and help narrow down those who come to Greece to sincerely be part of the community) Greece currently has an incoherent immigration policy and we definitely need some sort of streamlined method more in line with the rest of the EU. (that doesn’t just hand out amnesty for the sake of meeting some arbitrary quota but that tries to pick the best candidates for citizenship)

  17. A concerned citizen
    November 7, 2010    

    Greece currently has an incoherent population, let alone its policy messes.

    1.5 million illegal immigrants? You are off your head! Obviously, it’s really 11 million. The entire population of Greece.

    And the only people who got citizenship are the “Returning Greeks” (lolololl) whose ancestors allegedly left for Pontos 500 years ago. Right, and let’s not forget Adam and Eve, who must be Greeks after all. Oh, wait a mo, wouldn’t that mean the whole world is Greek??

  18. Mia
    November 7, 2010    

    Neighboring Denmark assessed that refugees should be sent back to Greece, after a year’s halt of “deportations” to Greece (that was in 2009 if I am not wrong).
    It’s interesting to see how the brand new -and far more conservative- coalition government in Sweden could re-assess the Dublin II in the future… I really hope it will not.

  19. ggh
    November 7, 2010    

    @concerned ethnic denier of Greeks

    “And the only people who got citizenship are the “Returning Greeks” (lolololl) whose ancestors allegedly left for Pontos 500 years ago. Right, and let’s not forget Adam and Eve, who must be Greeks after all. Oh, wait a mo, wouldn’t that mean the whole world is Greek??”

    As I recall “adam and eve” originally comes from the old testimate right?(i.e. Jewish religion) Jewish people claim to have left Israel 2000 years ago. Hebrew was essentially a dead language upto the 20th century. Jews populated Palestine mostly in the 20th century. Greeks and Jews uses to live under the exact same Ottoman empire. Israel and Greece were created out of the that exact same Ottoman Empire. Much of modern jewish culture actually has its root in ancient Greece (as does much of the world). At the moment Israel is far far tougher on its minorities than Greece is (as Palestinians well know)

    So do you endlessly harass Jews with the same sort of vitriol you do Greeks? I doubt it. Since Jews are a known target for that sort of thing-to do so would make your prejudices far too obvious.. Jewish people are also much tougher and smarter about how to deal with obsessive trollers like you. Your reputation as an anti-semite would follow you where ever you went. Thats why cowards you look for other scapegoats to ethnically harass.

  20. ggh
    November 7, 2010    

    Just listen to “concerned citizen” demonize Greeks Diva. He denies our identity. He undermines our national security by calling FYROM “Macedonia”. He obsessively finds things to criticiize about Greeks. (as if no one else in the world does anything wrong) No one rational and honest with themselves would call dermonization of a particular ethnic group “human rights”. There is no excuse for such behavior. That’s the kind of lowlifes you are attracting with the over-the-top criticism on this blog…. and that why I am critical of this blog. )I wanted to stop writing but I got sucked back in by “Concerned troller”)

    Again, I have no objection to criticism (Greece certainly has many flaws to chose from) but the exact words selected for that criticism matter (i.e. I’m furious when I hear alleged human rights groups like the far leftists at Helsinki reference Greece as “fascist”). The analysis has to be fair (i.e. not just a blind Greek bash fest but an examination of all the causes for isssues). The frequency of those criticism matter (i.e. there can’t be a Holocaust ever day in Greece. Accurately weigh issues relative to events in other nations too) Goodwill has to be shown (i.e. you can say positive things when you think the Greek state is doing something right no?)

    In short, unless you want to face the same sort of vitriol back, the tone of dialog has to be constructive in the form of actual viable solutions, rather than solely in the form of rants against Greeks. (like the ethnic denier of Greeks)

  21. A concerned citizen
    November 7, 2010    

    Everyone can see who is the troll here, ggh. The topic, the thread, the blog itself are nothing to do with the Republic of Macedonia, yet you choose to make it the focus.

    Most blog owners would just delete all your posts as off-topic and trolling.

  22. ggh
    November 8, 2010    

    “As far as I am concerned, Greeks are not an ethnic group.” – quote from self-proclaimed “human rights’ support a concerned citizen

  23. Post Disagreement
    November 8, 2010    

    Concerned non-citizen

    why do you not just leave…you hate Greeks obviously

    LEAVE

    Look Mr. MBE the Third also known as Xenos

    LEAVE
    LEAVE
    LEAVE

  24. A concerned citizen
    November 8, 2010    

    Ah, the intolerance that all xenoi in Greece have come to know… No independent thinking allowed (you have to become like us brain-dead Greeks whose money has been stolen for decades by smarter politicians), no dissent from nationalistic knee-jerk reactions, no … well, anything non-Greek basically.

    And definitely no intelligent discourse.

    SOD OFF

  25. The Verve
    November 8, 2010    

    “As far as I am concerned, Greeks are not an ethnic group.” – quote from self-proclaimed “human rights’ support a concerned citizen

    GGH : Yeah i’ve been reading concerned joker’s comments. They are funny as hell. I especially love the following :

    “They are a mix of albanians, vlachs, christian turks, slavs, and god knows what.”

    Yes. Ofcourse we are mixed, i’m very grateful for that…it’s made my dating life amazing! After all mixing things up helps produce healthier & better-looking offspring.
    Unlike certain white supremacists with delusions of racial purity who spend time on stormfront & keep the mein kampf on their bedside. Quite frankly this is all wonderful, as their prized lilly-white “aryan” women would rather get it on with a bastard greek like myself as opposed to them.

    I should get DNA tested though, I must ensure that I am indeed the descendant of albanians, vlachs, christian turks, slavs and whoever else contributed to my sexy mojo. As I could win a grammy one day and I wouldn’t want to leave anyone out from the long, corny thank-you list. Oh yeah, I won’t forget the proverbial fake smiles & kisses either.

  26. spare411@yahoo.ca
    November 9, 2010    

    It’s clear concerned racist just hides his hatred of Greeksbehind the words “human rights” (his endless negative stereotyping of Greeks attest to that)

    My guess is this is also why he keeps avoiding answering my questions about the contradictions coming out of FYROM’s own elected officials and national heroes. This sort of evasion seems to be a trend these days among those that allegedly support “human rights” in Greece… but seemingly don’t include Greeks themselves in that equation (especially not Macedonian ones)

    To “concerned ethnic denier of Greeks”,

    Are you in Greece legally? I asked before but you avoided answering.

  27. spare411@yahoo.ca
    November 9, 2010    

    Send me an email with your address in Greece. If you are in Greek illegally I’ll happily notify Greek security services to come by and give you a free escort you to the border. Given the vitriol you direct at Greeks we’d be doing you a favour right?

    I really have no idea why you chose to stay in Greece if you hate us so much. Do you see the original country as a hell hole or are you just a sadomasochist?

    Most of the immigrants I’ve met that come LEGALLY to Greece love the place (warts and all).They appreciate that Greeks have welcomed them to their country and are usually wonderful contributers to the fabrtic of Greek life. (quite unlike haters like you who seem obsessed with demonizing Greeks)

  28. GGH
    November 9, 2010    

    “Concerned racist” has no clue what he’s taking about. Virtually every single DNA study into modern Greek DNA shows a biological relationship to ancient Greeks. The sole exception I know is that Arnaiz study that used a single marker and made the ridiculous claim Greeks were most closely related to “Ethiopians”. It was widely discredited by the very reputable members of the genetics community years ago (as were ones that Arnaiz did for Japanese and Jews that made similar ludicrous claims) but of course that hasn’t stopped FYROM ultra nationalists from posting it everywhere on the Internet. (I Googled and even found the references lingering on white supremist websites too) Its crazy how many people seem to be obsessed with Greek DNA.

    Based on “concerned Greek haters” comments about Vlachs, Albanians, et al he seem to see national identities as equating to races (similar to how the Nazis saw themselves). He doesn’t think to ask himself if maybe Albanians and Vlaches perhaps have DNA from ancient Greece in them too (which DNA studies show they do) Or ask if the “English”, “Germans”, “Jews”, “Slavs”, “Turks”, ” etc also mixed with neighbours over the centuries (which any DNA test will confirm they have).

    Virtually any reputable geneticist will tell you (other than mostly for hire DNA kit companies that try to pawn off Halogroups as national identities with marketing gimmicks) their is no such thing as English, Greek, German, Jewish, or any kind of national DNA… as genes do not have national flags.

    Anonymous DNA studies always blow away the crackpot scientists, politicians, and nationalists that try to equate ethnic or national identity to some sort of racial identity.
    It’s common sense ethnic identity does not equal race. (given its relatively easy to find individuals with wildly different features within any given ethnic group) Things may have been different in the Neolithic period but human migration (and mixing) makes it impossible for static races to exist in a region for an extended period. Even in places like China today you’ll see massive differences in appearance between people of different regions.

    It’s unfortunate these sort of national myths still persist in the 21st century. (surprisingly mainstream but then 85% of this planet still believes in various “gods” so I guess I shouldn’t be that shocked)

    So in short, Greeks have

    Some location in common with ancient Greeks
    Some biology in common with ancient Greeks
    Some language in common with ancient Greeks
    And plenty of culture in common with ancient Greeks

    … and yet all we hear is grief from the smug patronizing ethnic deniers.

    If the same people that criticized Greeks honestly stopped to look in the mirror for a moment at their own claimed ancient ancestors… they would discover they typically have far less than Greeks, The dark irony is they usually actually have far more in common culturally with ancient Greeks than their own claimed roots. (but other than the case of FYROM… because they are bizarrely trying to usurp our identity… Greeks don’t mock others for their own identities)

    Greece today has many flaws but nothing we have done as a nation is even close to some of the horrible things other nations have done. It really upsets me after how much Greece has given the world that so much hate should be directed at it. Some seem to be behaving towards Greece sort of like the Taliban that used to blow up Buddhist statues because of their own petty ethnic insecurity complexes. (rather than fight to preserve as much as possible of an important part of human history)

  29. Post Disagreement
    November 9, 2010    

    Diva why dont you once and for all tell Xenos, Martin, Concerned Citizen whomever he is etc..to knock off with trying to put down Greeks.

    He is not discussing policy but attacking our ethnicity.

    For one denying our ethnic identity. Basically to further the argument that we should assimilate the unassimilatable with the hollow argument that since we have no identity or a fake one we should just let anyone in.

    Anyway even if we were a mix of this or that…its our business what kind of mix we want to be and it does not include by popular opinion cultures based on sharia law.

    Diva you are a HYPOCRITE.

    Go back to Jamaica

  30. ggh
    November 9, 2010    

    @post disagreement

    I don’t mind moderate legal immigration to Greece like other EU nations (after the majority of current flood of illegals are deported to their original homeland or to another EU nation… not before).

    And while Diva has crossed the line on this blog but I don’t know if she’s as bad as “concerned ethnic denier”. It’s plausible she means well but she hasn’t carefully considered that she’s generating negative stereotypes of Greeks through her poor choice of words. We are not without flaws (our finances are really our biggest mistake-which effects everything else) but we are not deserving of the over-the-top criticism we’ve received these last few years.

    It hasn’t been Greece needlessly destabilizing countries by attacking them for fake “WMDs”… killing hundreds of thousands… torturing…. and creating masses of refugees.. has it Diva?

    This is a problem with some people that claim to support ‘minority rights”. They disproportionately criticize one country while ignoring the atrocities of others with more serious human rights violations. Like Greece, Israel also see’s disproportionate criticism too. Many Muslim country have gross human rights violations as fundimentalist Islamist institutionalize middle age practices (e.g. stonings, pedophilia, executions of apotasy, etc..) (I don’t approve new Israeli settlements but even the UN human rights council trolls them as if their are few other countries in the world with human rights violations)

    Many people that work for human rights groups seem to think because they put the words into their organization names that it puts them above criticism. They think they can’t make serious mistakes in moral judgments themselves (by over criticizing or even sometimes criticizing unfairly) Some also think that somehow somehow minority rights must always trump majority where conflicts sometimes exist. Some think they have the moral right to endlessly complain against some ethnic group and that ethnic group they attack has no right to complain back.

    Anyhow, I’m stereotyping as many human rights workers are also decent people that are really trying to make a better world for everyone. All I know is I no longer take self-proclaimed “human rights” activists as seriously as I once did. If they don’t stand up for Hellenes against FYROM ultra-nationalists its hard not to be skeptical.

    FYROM’s constant irredentist talk of “United Macedonia” and attempt to usurp our identity of Macedonians with their historical propaganda is incredibly obvious (especailly given they are clearly in the Slavic ethno/linguistic sphere not Hellenic) They are starting to sound very much like Yugoslav communists did towards Greeks This is extremely dangerous and threatens a major destabilization of the Balkans (since Bulgarian, Albania, and Turkey might all get drawn in on one side or another).

    The FYROM government are clearly stalling resolving the dispute hoping everyone in the world will call them “Macedonians” (in the hopes of making Greece the pariah) but what they don’t get is millions of Greek speakers are in the unusual position that we can still read for ourselves what it says on 2200 year old ancient Macedonian artifacts… and it certain isn’t that ancient Macedonians were Slavic. No amount of FYROM’s historical falsification will erase the Hellenic nature of ancient Macedonia-nor the commitment of millions of Greeks to keep Macedonia Hellenic.

    What’s funny is while FYROM nationalist seem to profoundly hate Greeks (since we are forced to call our their historical gibberish as we are the targets of their irredentism).. yet what they seem to be slowly doing is erasing their own Bulgarian ethnic roots and Hellenizing themselves! (trying to prove they are the “real” Maedonians… whereas the ones that still speak Greek clearly have no relationship whatsoever!!!( Who knows maybe if the propagandists keep on their current trajectory of erasing their own Slavic roots in a hundred years they’ll be calling themselves Hellenes. It might sound impossible but Delchev et al would have had a heart attack knowing that modern FYROM nationalist have started to Hellenize themselves.

    I’m still waiting those that claim to support human rights to finally criticize FYROM’s behavior towards Greeks. It’s not hard to find the ethnic contradictions coming from their own elected representatives the last few years… or the constant “united Macedonia” references and maps. We said this would happen in 1991-and were patronizingly ignored by the alleged experts. Yet history has proven us correct and its about time some of our critics admitted they made a mistake and take ownership for that mistake (instead of continuing to pretend they don’t notice FYROM’s erratic behavior or unfairly pointing fingers at Greeks for it)

    http://www.google.ca/#hl=en&source=hp&biw=1797&bih=1011&q=united+macedonia&aq=f&aqi=g5g-m1&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=&fp=7149fcbaab2ae638

  31. pj
    November 9, 2010    

    @ ggh

    I think it is a bit unrealistic of you to expect a blog focussing on human rights in Greece to turn its attention to the FYROM issue. By the same token, I would not expect a blog focussing on human rights in the UK to start championing the cause of Falkland Islanders or Gibralterians. I think it is quite simply outside the scope of what DD is trying to do here. Inevitably, in speaking up for some of the most vulnerable people in Greece, she implicitly or explicitly criticises the Greek government, but that is not the same as demonising Greece, as you suggest. Nor do I find her language – or that of the sources she quotes – intemperate (in contrast with that of some of the blog’s commentators).

  32. A concerned citizen
    November 9, 2010    

    DD: as you can see, there is no tolerance of other viewpoints here, especially of anything outside of the Greek nationalist mainstream.

    It has reached the point in this thread alone that I am personally threatened (or so they think) and you are attacked with a direct racial insult (Go back to Jamaica).

    Just face it: you cannot allow thugs like this to take over your blog. You have to control it and block the vermin from this part of cyberspace.

  33. ggh
    November 10, 2010    

    @pj

    Human rights doesn’t mean just mean always sticking up for a minority or blind criticism. For instance, Diva criticizes Greeks for the current problems with refugees… when how exactly is it Greece’ fault that other EU nations have been dumping refugees on Greece and hiding Dublin II?(as if its Sweden that has borders facing second and third world nations)

    It’s not like everyone didn’t know for years Greece was having trouble with refugees. Greece is not to blame he US and UK decided to attack Iraq and destabilize the middle east. It didn’t ask for a million plus illegals to cross into its borders illegally. It’s intellectually dishonest to try an blame Greece for the all problems with refugees. (especially when even the refugees themselves even carry some moral responsibility)

    Or again take again the example of FYROM nationalists.

    At the moment FYROM nationalists living in Greece are attempting to manipulate human rights organizations to do their dirty work. For instance, Helsinki Greece pretends they don’t notice FYROM’s changing ethnic narrative into “ancient Macedonians” and rampant irredenitism (with endless references to “united Macedonia”. Not only that but they even have the audacity to criticizes Greece rather than FYROM.

    This has to change for me to take the claims of alleged HUMAN rights activists in Greece seriously. They can’t stay blind to violations against the rights of Greeks (especially not Macedonian ones) then pretend to stand for human rights. HUMAN rights means sticking up for the everyone. At least check Greeks are human too.

  34. ggh
    November 10, 2010    

    @concerned Greek-hater

    Blah blah blah. You are the “thug” trying to silence valid objections. Claiming to support “human rights” is not a moral license to make unfair criticisms nor to demonize others. Although I think Diva goes too far and doesn’t show interest in protecting ethnic Greeks on this blog… I don’t think Diva consciously means to harm.

    In your case I do think you mean conscious harm though. You just hide your prejudices behind the words “human rights”. Aside from just denying our very ethnic identity you churn out one negative stereotype of Greeks after another and ridicule us. What I don’t understand is why do you stay in Greece if you hate Greeks so much? Why not go back to the country you came from if Greeks are such a horrible people? People usually immigrate for a better life no?

    Do the concepts of reason and ethics mean anything to you? Is it the fault of Greeks you decided to move the Greece?

  35. ggh
    November 10, 2010    

    @pj

    I just want to be clear about something. I’m not saying not to criticize Greeks or the Greek government (just one more straw man from the Greek hater that oozes negative stereotypes). There are ultra-nationalists and racists in Greece (just like every nation). And there is certainly plenty of things to criticize about Greece’s handing of refugees and as well as the rampant corruption.

    The bottom line here human rights are not a get out of jail card against criticism against those that criticize or simply word play to hide prejudices behind. (sometimes not ill willed but prejudices can still be harmful) Not is human rights about only about criticizing the government or the dominant ethnic group of a given nation (even in cases where the focus is allegedly on a particular nation).

    Aside from being able to also make criticism of minorities in that nation (not only blindly defend them-even when their doing something wrong) it must also include protecting the rights of the dominant ethnic group in that nation. Another thing it must also consider its choice of words carefully. (else it attracts trollers like concerned ethnic denier of Greeks and escalated into hateful rhetoric)

    For instance, I”ve read Helsinki Greece obscenely use the words “fascists” to describe part of the Greek judiciary over the Plevis case recently (not blaming Diva for this just an illustration). I haven’t read Plevis book (nor do I ever plan to given I’ve heard it allegedly offensively labels Jews are “subhuman”) but there is such a thing as free speech to consider also. (see the Turner Diary, KKK, Nazi Party of America….. all perfectly legal in the US)

    Using “fascist” to describe the Greek state (comparing it to those that killed millions) is incredibly offensive and defacto demonization….. and it’s coming from an alleged human rights group? (and this is just one of many issues I have with Helsinki Greece…and would note Helsinki International went bankrupt due to criminal fraud)

    With all the pressures going in Greece these days the tone has decidedly taken a nasty edge. Greece has many flaws but it certainly isn’t analogous to Nazis Germany or Cambodia under Pol Pot. It’s a democratic first world nation and, statistically speaking, one of the safest countries in the world to live in (far safer than the US actually). That seems to be getting lost lately with exaggerated and ill thought out criticisms. There needs to be better context here.

    http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_percap-crime-murders-per-capita

    http://www.google.ca/images?um=1&hl=en&biw=1914&bih=981&tbs=isch%3A1&sa=1&q=torture+iraq&aq=f&aqi=g1&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=

  36. pj
    November 10, 2010    

    @ ggh

    I don’t think anyone is trying to blame Greece in the way you suggest. The fact remains, though, that successive governments have failed in their duty to put in place structures to deal properly with migrants and refugees.

    As for the FYROM issue that you keep returning to, I think this is simply off the point. It is rather like complaining that a blog about apples should not be taken seriously because it fails to mention oranges, for example.

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