The only thing necessary for the persistence of evil is for enough good people to do nothing

Armed Border Guards for Greece

Via the Guardian

A new force of armed European guards is to be dispatched to Greece to patrol the country’s border with Turkey in an attempt to stem steeply increasing illegal immigration into Europe.

The deployment of the Rapid Intervention Border Teams, assembled from the border guard forces of other European countries, will be the first time Brussels has deployed multinational armed units on the EU’s external land border.

The teams are to arrive in Greece within days, the European commission announced today , although the precise numbers and makeup are yet to be decided.

A commission official said: “This is a new front. The teams are armed, but they can only use their arms in self-defence.”

There has to be a solution for the appalling and inhuman way that Greece has treated asylum seekers, refugees and migrants but I am very concerned about this latest development. On the one hand, I am glad that the EU are intervening to prevent the misery that is a daily reality for those who end up here. On the other hand, what does this mean for the people who are captured by this armed force? What happens to them? There is no information about reception centres or offices for processing claims of asylum or refugee status. I assume that they will simply be deported back to the country they left. A convenient solution for those who have been unwilling to deal with the situation properly. In Europe, we are already treating immigrants as criminals and this is another step towards this Fortress Europe that people seem so willing to embrace. I assume also, that we won’t hear about the abuses and mistreatment that might be perpetrated by these forces. Another way of turning a blind eye to the desperate people fleeing places like Afghanistan, Iraq and Iran. This move will be popular here and mostly unquestioned. It takes the pressure off Greece which is what the country wanted. The rest of Europe must be happy too. Borders being closed and guarded is exactly what the vast majority of people want. That way we don’t have to take any responsibility, do we ? We don’t even have to see the results of injustice and conflict in the world arriving on our doorsteps.

Via the Guardian

Greece ‘shamed’ by migrant internment centres

Conditions in the centres are so harsh that last week the UN’s special rapporteur on torture, Manfred Nowak, described them as inhuman.

On islands such as Samos and Lesbos, which border the Turkish coast, it is not uncommon for as many as 30 men to be kept in a room sharing a single toilet and filthy mattresses. Basic commodities such as soap and razor blades are rare. Without interpreters, bewildered refugees, mostly from Africa, Afghanistan, Iraq and elsewhere in Asia, are unable to communicate with officials.

Concerned locals do their best, handing out food and clothes, but despite the election of a socialist government which has taken a more sympathetic approach to migrants, observers say the conditions have brought shame on Greece.

Last year, amid chaotic scenes, hundreds of migrants in a detention centre on Lesbos demonstrated against their treatment. Children on hunger strike protested by setting fire to mattresses and attacking guards.

I am just worried about where this will lead. I will say it now, even though I know what the reaction to this statement will be… there will be casualties from this move. There will be abuses and mistreatment of refugees and asylum seekers. The more we have demonised them, the easier it has been to treat them as less than human.

This is my opinion. What do you think ?

41 Comments

  1. Guardian are Greek haters
    October 26, 2010    

    I’m sick and tired of listening to the far leftist self-righteous haters at the Guardian endless try to demonize Greeks (and I say this as a centrist) For years the Guardian have been calling FYROM “Macedonians”… while hiding from the people of the UK that the UK itself used to deny the existence of “ethnic Macedonians”. They pretend they don’t notice FYROM ultranationalists change into “ancient Macedonians”. They pretend they don’t notice the maps and references to “united Macedonia” from FYROM.

    Greece needs to definitely improve facilities for illegals but “shamed” is a ridiculous claim. 9 out 10 illegals arrive to Europe vis-a-vis Greece. Some at the Guardian pretend its only Greece’s problem-until they now face having to keep some of those immigrants they used to ship back to Greece…at which point the EU finally sent armed troops to help secure one of the EU’s most vulnerable spots for illegal immigration. What a coincidence I’m sure.

    Bottom line: Illegals are illlegals. They disrespect Greece (and the EU) by breaking the law and entering someone else’s nation illegally. They are not victims they are criminals. A genuine refugee that files a petition should be considered with compassion- not someone that sneaks in like a petty burglar in the middle of the night like people in other countries owe them something. Altruism is altrusim. Attempts to manipulate with guilt mind games is moral reprehensible.

    Everyone knows Greece is hardly in an economic or political position to deal with all the illegals at the moment. If the Guardian were sincere (and not self-righteous sophists) their writing staff at any point could write an article petitioning the UK government to accept every single last one of the hundreds of thousands of illlegals currently in Greece if they wished.

    Well Guardian? Are you some kind of British racists? We are waiting to hear back.

  2. ray of sunshine
    October 26, 2010    

    Just to answer one of the accusations against the guardian in that comment. Greece has been shamed at the UN over its treatment of refugees. The article does not say that Greeks are shamed. It plainly says that the locals are doing what they can to help. The fact is our government has shamed us. Countries throughout Europe are not sending back asylum seekers, not because they don’t want to but because of the way we as a country treat them!

    btw. I am Greek and I feel ashamed of this situation happening in my country. I hope that Greece is shamed enough to do something about it.

  3. kstat
    October 26, 2010    

    Things aren’t that bad for illegal immigrants in Greece.Most of them aren’t really arrested,just given a paper that says they must leave country within 30 days.Of course noone does so, they just keep on swamping Athens and other cities.Besides there are virtually no borders in Evros,everyday 300 peope pass without anyone bothering them.Find me any other european state that loose.A tiny minority gets caught and stays for a while in detention centers where i got no doubt conditions are far from perfect but again if i entered a country illegally i wouldn’t expect a presidential suite once i got arrested.
    DD once again you blame greek authorities but offer no alternative solution.You think that Greece should offer house,job,money to an infinite number of people coming from 3rd world countries.Utopic and borderline silly

    A final note,maybe you as a British feel responsible for past British Empire’s actions that brought misery to many countries but the last time Greeks started an expansionary war was during the Byzantine empire.In other words don’t expect us to feel any qualms for Afghanis or Somalis misfortunes.We didn’t start any war with these countries,we got no responsibility for their problems and no obligation to solve them.

  4. Guardian are Greek haters
    October 27, 2010    

    I already suggested things should be improved for those illlegals but who exactly is going to pay for it “”sunshine”?

    If you are really so “ashamed” as you claim feel free to sell your private property and give your money to those illegals. Is anyone stopping you? No? Seems like you like your computer and personal property more? So who exactly are you to be pointing fingers at others “sunshine”?

    It is easy to rant and rant about the government (a Greek national sport) but where does the government get its money from? The people no?

    In case you didn’t notice Greece is already broke. What money are we spending but the money the EU has already given us? (due to mostly to those, like you, that seem to think the government “owes” them something and created Greece’s massive debt by spending money we didn’t have in the first place)

    Of course, even in crisis, you sorts are the first kinds to always argue spend more money.

    Greece deserved to be thoroughly criticized for its mismanagement of its finances but I don’t appreciate the dramatic over simplification and demonetization of Greece by the Guardian staff on this particular issue. Greece isn’t remotely morally to blame for illegals entering its country in massive numbers. It isn’t in a situation like the UK. We have endless streams of illegals coming into a tiny country already under extreme economic and political pressure.

    If the Guardian were remotely serious about their concern of those illegals, instead of ranting against Greeks, they could easily write an article to encourage the UK government to accept all of Greece’s illegals. They could even personally send money out of their own pay checks. (like “sunshine” is doing right this moment I’m sure)

    Still waiting to see if everyone who says they “care” so much- proves it when it comes time to come out of their own pocket books.

    My advice to the Greek government would be just work with the EU and UN to get the facilities up to minimum standards. We simply can’t afford anything more right now. Even if Greece could afford more, that extra money would be better spent helping someone hungry in another nation rather than someone that consciously illegally entered another countries borders.

    If the EU or UN or anyone else have a problem with conditions for illegals in Greece they are certainly welcome to pick up the tab (and I for one hope they have enough money to do so but that is entirely up to their own taxpayers). There is no point faking Greece is being “generous” paying for upgrades to facilities when the money we would be spending is coming from the taxpayers of other EU nations.

    It is the EU who is being generous not Greeks. Greeks lost their credibility when they spent their government into the ground. The best thing Greece could do for the EU right now is focus on fixing its finances not finding new ways to burden EU taxpayers.

  5. Guardian are Greek haters
    October 27, 2010    

    @kstat

    Well said. The Guardian seems to have “forgotten” it was largely the US and UK that created this massive refugee problem with their war for fake WMDs. How about Guardian did you find them those WMDs yet? Has the UK prosecuted any of its government officials for potential war crimes yet? (seeing as the UK seems to have been complicit in torture)

    UK: War built on lies leading to hundreds of thousands dead and suffering (with many of those refugees they themselves created coming to Greece)… while still pretending they themselves didn’t used to deny the existence of “ethnic Macedonians”.

    Greece: Defaulted paying our bills and shabby facilities for illegal immigrants- and still one of the lowest murder rates in the world. (several times safer than walking the streets of America yet unfairly portrayed as virtual war zone in western media like the Guardian)

    Gee how “ashamed” I am of Greece-while the current generation of Brits are at least partially morally complicit in the murder and suffering of hundreds of thousands of Iraqis (that never did them an ounce of harm).

    I used to be more on the left but I’m more moderate and sensible now. As I’ve become older I’ve become more attuned how the far left and far right operate by trying to manipulate ones emotions with their self-righteous rants that defy reason.

  6. Post Disagreement
    October 27, 2010    

    I am so thankful that the EU is going to help us keep these people out.
    We have to many foreigners esp NON-EU nationals in Greece.

    http://www.henrymakow.com/diversity_an_admission_of_cult.html

  7. ray of sunshine
    October 27, 2010    

    Thank you for the article Post. Hilarious.

    I like racial minorities. I like their restaurants and cooking. They have strong family values and this is more important now than ever. I was married to a Filipina for two years. I am not a racist in the negative sense

    Many “minorities” and “women” are beholden to the Illuminati who put them in power. They are their trained seals.

    feminism was an excuse to undermine marriage, heterosexuality and males in general

    I now understand where you are coming from. Thanks for the laugh.

  8. Guardian are Greek haters
    October 28, 2010    

    @Ray of Sunshine

    Right. Because every Greek talks like that. Sheesh talk about cherry picking quotes to create a negative stereotype. Let me guess you are left wing?

    In my opinion, political extremism is whats a disaster for Greece.

    The far rightwing is basically off the deep end (racists that are intolerant to anyone non-Greek) They couldn’t tell basic logic from a mushroom. They want to keep out all non-Greeks from becoming Greeks. This is really not the Greek way though. Hellenizing has been intrinsic part of our culture since ancient times (even during Byzantine era when we still managed to be Greco-Romans) Only idiots believe in national races. What matters most is maintaining national culture, themes, toponyms, language, ideas and the like.

    Racism isn’t just a Greek problem though. Some (of course not all) modern Germans, Jews, English, etc… can be racists too (any anonymous DNA test will show their claims of imagined ancient purity to be laughably false). This is actual part of what really irks me about those that smugly criticize Greeks for considering ancient Greece part of our cultural patrimony. They seemingly don’t care to look in the mirror to review what exactly do they still have in common culturally/linguistically with their claimed ancestors?. (because from what I can tell the root of much of the culture of the modern world comes from Greece) Who exactly is living the bigger myth? What exactly do they have in common to be criticizing us?

    The far leftwing tend tend to be post-modernist flakes. They think because they can spell epistemology they represent the intellectual elite and endlessly bash any Greeks that disagrees with them as a peasant. Their ideological outlook pushes them to deconstruct everything and everyone-until there is nothing left (including their own identity as any Greeks, as to a man, those that call FYROM nationalists “Macedonians” are leftists.. hardly a coincidence of chance)

    A far leftist seems government as their own personal piggy bank for their pet projects. Leftists see it as much easier for the government to take money at gunpoint from the talented rather than support freedom and have everyone take as much personal personally responsibility for their own lives as possible. (e.g. by opening up a company and producing something of actual value to someone else … rather than just producing self-righteous hot air)

    Case in point, “sunshine”.

    How is your personal financial donation to the holding facilities coming along dear? You claim you care right? Why don’t you show us by putting your own personal money where your mouth is? Let me guess. No. You can’t take personal responsibility for their welfare. Its the governments job to fix everything right?

    And “sunshine” is it remotely possible Greeks can also be the victims of persecution once and awhile too? For instance, can you perhaps explain to all the oppressive Greeks what the US and UK government meant by words like this?

    This (US) Government considers talk of Macedonian “nation”, Macedonian “Fatherland”, or Macedonia “national consciousness” to be unjustified demagoguery representing no ethnic nor political reality, and sees in its present revival a possible cloak for aggressive intentions against Greece.” – U.S State Department Foreign Relations Vol. VIII Washington D.C. Circular Airgram – 868.014/26 Dec. 1944 (http:// tinyurl.com/nel46d)

    And please explain why is it that everyone has suddenly “forgotten” how they used to deny the existence of so-called “ethnic Macedonians”? Is the US (and UK) now accusing themselves of being complicit in an attempted genocide of “ethnic Macedonians” in 1944?

    “It is no wonder that, in matters of politics in the Balkans, Greece feels misunderstood. It cannot understand why, after it stood alone with the United Kingdom against the forces of fascism between 28 October 1940–Ohi day, as it is still called–and 27 April 1941, when Athens finally fell, its former allies now appear to be taking the part of forces against which it stood, especially when, after the second world war, it endured those further four years of civil war to hold the line against the communist advance to the Aegean. That was done for the United States and for the United Kingdom especially–the world powers of the time–and those Governments objected, in 1944, to Tito’s change of the name of Vardar Banovina.” (Edward O’Hara, House of Commons Hansard Debates for 9 May 1995, Column 602)

    Curious minds wish to understand this paradox given many FYROM ultra-nationalists now claim to be direct descents of ancient Macedonians (contradicting the assurances of their own public officials of a few years ago)…. use the name to portray Macedonia Greece as “occupied”… while others pretend they don’t notice their behavior.

    “The creation of the Macedonian nation, for almost half of a century, was done in a condition of single-party dictatorship. In those times, there was no difference between science and ideology, so the “Macedonian” historiography, unopposed by anybody, comfortably performed a selection of the historic material from which the “Macedonian” identity was created. There is nothing atypical here for the process of the creation of any modern nation, except when falsification from the type of substitution of the word “Bulgarian” where made.
    utrinski.com.mk/?ItemID=C7A7DD4ECD45C946BF6573284EC01164

    In my opinion, although I don’t agree with it. some xenophobia in Greece is quite understandable reaction. Seemingly some are trying to ethnically erase Greeks (especially Macedonians) while they dare portray Greeks as “racists”? On what basis is FYROM “Macedonian” other than on their pseudo-scientific racial arguments? Is a Bulgarian dialect modified and renamed by communist tyrants to be now to be “Macedonian”? Is Paoenia now Macedonia? Is Thessaloniki to now be known as Solun? Where exactly is the authentic Macedonian culture to be found in such bizarre claims?

    Only people that also speak up for the identity rights of Greeks against the name games of the former self-identifying ethnic Bulgarians of the former Yugoslavia have a moral right to criticize Greeks on minority rights. Otherwise their empty words come off as something warm and smelly. (see Helsinki Greece that manipulate the terms “human rights” as a smokescreen to push their far leftist ideology)

  9. Guardian are Greek haters
    October 29, 2010    

    From the article…

    “The Dublin II agreement states that asylum applications must be dealt with in the first EU country that an applicant arrives in.”

    Well that’s another half truth isn’t it? How many third world illegals are going to make it Ireland as a first stop? How about Belgium?

    Uhmmm…. as everyone knows Greece is situated at the most vulnerable point in Europe for illegal immigrants. Iits problems with illegals has absolutely nothing to do with its policies for amnesty as whomever wrote that article attempts to inaccurately suggests. Greece’s flood of illegals is largely due to political instability in the middle east and a lack of a proper border control. (which is difficult given Greece is a large peninsula with a small number of resources to patrol it) Imo, the Greek military should probably get more involved in border patrols.

    Furthermore, those sorts of unfair demonizations of Greece are really getting under my skin (and it largely has to deal with the fact we won’t recognize FYROM… so many are trying to shovel as much dirt s Greece as possible.. .especially FYROM and Turkey).

    Greece needs to finally start pushing back.

    Lets start asking Americans and UK government officials are they claimed they were complicit in the attempted genocide of so-called “ethnic Macedonians” in 1944 (when both nations denied they existence … yet now pretend those events didn’t happen) Lets get it on paper that both governments admit “ethnic Macedonians” were invented during the cold war (mostly out of Bulgarian Macedonians)

    And if Helsinki Greece or any human right organization complains about FYROM agaijn, we need to confront them and ask them why are they hiding cold war history in their reports? Why are they ignoring that FYROM are now clearly contradicting their own governments ethnic claims that they weren’t related to ancient Macedonians? Why are they ignoring all the hatred directed at Greeks by FYROM ultra-natioanlists in their human rights reporting? Why are they ignoring the endless references to “united Macedonia” emanating from FYROM?

    Since when did become a human right for a new nation to threaten the territorial integrity of another nation and attempt to usurp its identity?

    Until I see action on this name issue in defense of Greece I don’t trust a word that comes out of any human rights organization. From what I can tell some are trying to ethnically cleanse Greeks out of existence (in particular Macedonians whom everyone that calls FYROM “Macedonians” now pretends don’t exist). In my opinion, this is to cover up their shame for betraying Greece (since we told them this would happen back in 1991… and were patronizingly brushed aside as peasants)

    OXI.

    Are ancestors didn’t sacrifice their lives for their country for a lazy generation of far leftist self-righteous cowards to give it away. Greece is under great stress but it is at that exact moment Greeks show their fearlessness as a people.

  10. ray of sunshine
    October 29, 2010    

    @Guardian are Greek haters

    R

    ight. Because every Greek talks like that. Sheesh talk about cherry picking quotes to create a negative stereotype. Let me guess you are left wing?

    I wasn’t talking to you. I was refering to the article that Post Disagreement linked to. He chose to post that article which is, if you bothered to go and read it, IS hilarious. The negative stereotypes are IN THE ARTICLE. Are you saying that I am making out that Post Disagreement is ridiculous? Go and read the article. He or she is doing a great job of that all my his or her self.

  11. David Walker
    October 29, 2010    

    To the Guardian are Greek Haters,
    The statement that you refer to is not a half-truth. That is the Dublin II Agreement. The fact that asylum seekers cannot reach other countries is not the point. The law states that they must apply for asylum in the country they first arrive in (as Devious D says) which happens to be Greece.

    I have been reading this blog for a short time. I found it only about 2 months ago but from what I have seen, it seems that a couple of people here are just out to get the owner. Making nonsensical accusations and trying to discredit her for flimsy reasons. Why should ANY human rights activist comment on the name issue? Why should anyone for that matter unless it is of interest to them? I don’t know of ANY other circumstance where a writer/journalist/activist is discredited on such a regular basis, simply because they haven’t commented on your pet subject.

    I, for one, am sick and tired already of your feeble attempts to derail every discussion. No-one has said, devious included, that Greece is not under pressure to deal with immigration. It is. No one, including devious, is saying that it should deal with this problem alone. BUT Greece has to take responsibility for treating immigrants so badly. No one is forcing it to do so.

    And I don’t think any serious minded person buys the whole conspiracy idea. That all this bad press about Greece’s treatment of immigrants has to do with the name issue. Most of us have no opinion on the matter, apart from wanting it to be resolved. Saying that any negative press about Greece stems from it is just nonsense.

    I agree with devious that she does not wish to engage with the likes of the few who attack her every word. I didn’t want to either because I think it’s kind of pointless. So this will be my only comment to you. I just wanted people to know that there are people reading this blog who can see right through you and the foolishness that you write.

  12. Mia
    October 29, 2010    

    Hi Diva,

    I agree with your point that Greece needs assistance from the EU in order to bear the burden of immigration and refugee-status applications. Greece definitely needs assistance in order to manage the border controls, however what I see as an acute need is the improvement of detention centers and camps for the people who wait for their cases to be processed, especially in times of a financial crisis.

    Although I find it positive that some countries do not send back to Greece asylum applicants for obvious reasons, I am wondering if “bending” the Dublin II will lead to keeping the “best” applicants and then sending back the others for Greece to manage and evaluate their cases? Could it lead to a new type of exclusion of the excluded?

    I hope your book is coming along well,
    Regards from CPH

  13. Mia
    October 30, 2010    

    And I also hope my English makes some sense tonight :)

  14. Guardian are Greek haters
    October 30, 2010    

    My point is why are so many intent on encouraging negative stereotypes of Greeks? (e.g. selectively quote mining Greeks to endlessly portray Greeks iin a negative light). Most Greeks I know are extremely tolerant people in real world practice (why Greece has had one of the lowest per capita murder rates in the world for decades). About the only stereotype I can see is it that we all like to argue with one another. (my theory is too many proud wannabe Aristotles and not enough listeners)

    This is not to say their aren’t racists in Greece but the same is true in every nation. Some (including a few self-proclaimed “human rights” organizations- like Helsinki Greece) are seemingly trying to portray a typical Greek like the retards in Golden Dawn. It’s like a Greek trying to portray a typical American to the KKK.

    Reality check. Statistically speaking, a minority walking the streets of Greece has far far less chance of being killing than one walking the streets of America. You’d think the opposite was true these days (as Greeks are endless being portray as racists in the media.
    nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_percap-crime-murders-per-capita

    Blame Greeks for their economic mismanagement but much of the rest of the complaints are gibberish (relative to what the countries that are doing the complaining have been up to the last few years). This hostile attitude towards Greeks reminds very much of Nazi libel against Jews in the 1930s. (who unfairly accused Jews of all sorts of things). In my opinion, its a manipulate attempt by some corners to make Greeks recognize the former self-identifying ethnic Bulgarians of the former Yugoslavia as “macedonians”

    (else why would these same sorts that harass Greeks consistently ignore FYROM’s attempt to usurp our identity and irredentist language? Why would they pretend only Greeks have ever objected to their name?)

    This (US) Government considers talk of Macedonian “nation”, Macedonian “Fatherland”, or Macedonia “national consciousness” to be unjustified demagoguery representing no ethnic nor political reality, and sees in its present revival a possible cloak for aggressive intentions against Greece.” – U.S State Department Foreign Relations Vol. VIII Washington D.C. Circular Airgram – 868.014/26 Dec. 1944
    http:// tinyurl.com/nel46d

  15. Guardian are Greek haters
    October 30, 2010    

    Many seem to be suffering from the same collective delusion (where now former self-identifying ethnic Bulgarians of the former Yugoslavia… that live in what was once ancient Paeonia…. that speak a Bulgarian dialect modified and renamed “Macedonian” by cold war communists…. are having their historical narrative put on par with those that can still read Greek off 2200 year old ancient Macedonian artifacts… that live in the original ancient Macedonia.) Can anyone say ethnic cleansing of Greeks?

    To David the self-proclaimed supporter of “human rights” (who my guess is likely references FYROM nationalists as “Macedonians”) How is that giant statue of Alexander coming along is Skopie that everyone pretends isn’t a direct assault on the ethnic identity of Greeks? And have you “forgotten” the words of FYROM’s own government officials?

    ‘We do not claim to be descendants of Alexander the Great.’
    (FYROM’S Ambassador Ljubica Acevshka in speech to US representatives in Washington on January 22 1999)

    ‘We are not related to the northern Greeks who produced leaders like Philip and Alexander the Great. We are a Slav people and our language is closely related to Bulgarian.’(FYROM´s Ambassador to Canada Gyordan Veselinov in interview to Ottawa Citizen Newspaper 24 February 1999)

    “We are Slavs who came to this area in the sixth century … We are not descendants of the ancient Macedonians” (Kiro Gligorov, FYROM’s first President to Foreign Information Service Daily Report, Eastern Europe, February 26, 1992)

    “The creation of the “Macedonian” nation, for almost half of a century, was done in a condition of single-party dictatorship. In those times, there was no difference between science and ideology, so the “Macedonian” historiography, unopposed by anybody, comfortably performed a selection of the historic material from which the “Macedonian” identity was created. There is nothing atypical here for the process of the creation of any modern nation, except when falsification from the type of substitution of the word “Bulgarian” with the word “Macedonian” were made.
    (Denko Maleski, Minister of foreign affairs of the FYROM in an interview to FYROM newspaper Utrinski Vesnik)

    “To everyone of us it is clear that this entire thesis, this entire thesis for ethnogenesis from Macedonians, it isn’t so. Ancient Macedonians until today is founded on a series of mystifications and semi-historical truths which are emitted from Republic of Macedonia and that by using and abusing the media.[…] “Why do Skopjans not ask how much Dardanian blood there is in them[..] how much Thracian blood there is in them[…] how much Illyrian blood there is in them[…]how much Paeonian blood there is in them.[…]I do not see anyone of us get into a fight over the amount of Paeonian blood in us, or God forbid, Dardinian one?[…]Ancient Macedonia does not match with today’s Macedonia at all.[…]Ancient Macedonia, we must clarify it once, is literally in entirety in today’s Greece.[…] If we are looking at ethnogenesis then we should open at another place. Therefore we should discuss how much we are Paeoneans. ” (Ljubco Georgievski, ex-Prime Minister of FYROM, FYROM A1 TV June 2009) http://www.youtube.com/user/Srbolog#play/uploads/1/-HvKPiLYZCI

  16. Guardian are Greek haters
    October 31, 2010    

    (this is a repost as my last one disappeared into the digital ether)

    In reply to David’s points,

    “The statement that you refer to is not a half-truth. That is the Dublin II Agreement. The fact that asylum seekers cannot reach other countries is not the point. The law states that they must apply for asylum in the country they first arrive in (as Devious D says) which happens to be Greece.”

    It is a half truth. And your comment is pure evasion.

    Again what are the chances that a refugee is going to reach the UK or Belgium as a first entry point? Reality check. The vast majority of illegals to the EU come via Greece precisely because of its topography and location. (which has absolutely nothing to do with the Greek people or the Dublin Agreement or with human rights) Blame Greece fo its finances but its not remotely its fault thousands upon thousands disrespect its borders annually.

    The Greek government is to blame for is signing that Dublin agreement without first making sure other EU states would (in writing) take geography into consideration. (rather than try to manipulatively and self-righteously pawn this off as only a problem of Greek “racists”) Greece may not allow as many asylum seekers but lets not forget it also faces far more illegals in its country (as a proportion of its population) than the rest of the EU. Where was that in your calculation of human rights narrative David?

    ” Making nonsensical accusations and trying to discredit her for flimsy reasons. Why should ANY human rights activist comment on the name issue?”

    Presumably human rights apply to Greeks as well right?

    So why pray tell aren’t the same human rights activists that are criticizing Greeks on not protecting illegal immigrants… now pretending they don’t notice the former self-identifying ethnic Bulgarians of the former Yugoslavia’s attempt to usurp the identity of Greeks? ( and FYROM’s irredentist language?)

    How is it possible so many that claim to support HUMAN rights have “forgotten” FYROM’s own former government officials used to publicly claim they weren’t related to an ancient Macedonians only a few years ago David? How have so many “forgotten” that western powers ALSO used to deny they were “ethnic Macedonians”?

    “This (US) Government considers talk of Macedonian “nation”, Macedonian “Fatherland”, or Macedonia “national consciousness” to be unjustified demagoguery representing no ethnic nor political reality, and sees in its present revival a possible cloak for aggressive intentions against Greece.” – U.S State Department Foreign Relations Vol. VIII Washington D.C. Circular Airgram – 868.014/26 Dec. 1944
    http:// tinyurl.com/nel46d

    “I, for one, am sick and tired already of your feeble attempts to derail every discussion.”

    And I for one am sick and tied of the evasion of self-righteous Greek haters that ignore the name issue. They seem to believe they can utter the words “human rights” that puts them beyond severe mistakes in moral judgment. (e.g. they do everything possible to change the subject on the name issue and throw dirt at Greece)

    You write: “And I don’t think any serious minded person buys the whole conspiracy idea. That all this bad press about Greece’s treatment of immigrants has to do with the name issue.

    That’s not what I said (straw man) I said only take those seriously that protect Greece’s right not to have their identity and territory usurped as credible human rights activists (because they are at least morally consistent and protect our rights too). The rest seem to harbour prejudices against Greeks.

    You write: “Most of us have no opinion on the matter, apart from wanting it to be resolved. Saying that any negative press about Greece stems from it is just nonsense.”

    Where have a said such a thing here David? Yet another straw man to silence valid criticism. I’m not saying that Greece is beyond criticism but again not by those with an overly hostile tone for relatively minor issues while brushing over major ones.

    For instance, how much effort have you spent on looking into potential war crimes by the UK and other nations in the “co-coalition of the willing” David? (e.g. Wikileaks torture documents seems to show the US breached the Geneva and UN conventions against torture) And how is the search for Saddans WMDs coming along David? You know the ones that hundreds of thousands of Iraqis DIED and suffered for. Are the politicians in the nations that argued for that that war, based on fraudulent justifications, ever going to face criminal investigation? (and then of course there is the name dispute-so I know first hand how much sophistry is posing as “human rights”)

    When the priorities of people like you are realigned, I can take claims of “human rights” objectives more seriously (a saying about the mote in ones eye comes to mind) Anybody and their mother can claim to stand for human rights. Moral consistency is what demonstrates that. Tell me is the UK and US currently being principled in the name dispute?

    “It is no wonder that, in matters of politics in the Balkans, Greece feels misunderstood. It cannot understand why, after it stood alone with the United Kingdom against the forces of fascism between 28 October 1940–Ohi day, as it is still called–and 27 April 1941, when Athens finally fell, its former allies now appear to be taking the part of forces against which it stood, especially when, after the second world war, it endured those further four years of civil war to hold the line against the communist advance to the Aegean. That was done for the United States and for the United Kingdom especially–the world powers of the time–and those Governments objected, in 1944, to Tito’s change of the name of Vardar Banovina.” (Edward O’Hara, House of Commons Hansard Debates for 9 May 1995, Column 602)

  17. Guardian are Greek haters
    October 31, 2010    

    (this is a repost as my last few keep disappeared into the digital ether)

    In reply to David’s points,

    You write: “The statement that you refer to is not a half-truth.”

    It is a half truth. And your comment is pure evasion. Again what are the chances that a refugee is going to reach the UK or Belgium as a first entry point? The reality is the vast majority of illegals to the EU come via Greece precisely because of its topography and location. (which has absolutely nothing to do with the Greek people or the Dublin Agreement or with human rights) Blame Greece fo its finances but its not remotely its fault thousands upon thousands disrespect its borders annually. (which is why I resent the over the top language of “shame” and attempts to portray Greeks as racists)

    You write: ” Making nonsensical accusations and trying to discredit her for flimsy reasons. Why should ANY human rights activist comment on the name issue?”

    They are not “nonsense’ Presumably human rights apply to Greeks as well no?

    So why pray tell aren’t the same human rights activists that are criticizing Greeks… now pretending they don’t notice the former self-identifying ethnic Bulgarians of the former Yugoslavia’s attempt to usurp the identity of Greeks? ( and FYROM’s irredentist language?)

    How is it possible so many that claim to support HUMAN rights have “forgotten” FYROM’s own former government officials used to publicly claim they weren’t related to an ancient Macedonians only a few years ago David? How have so many “forgotten” that western powers ALSO used to deny they were “ethnic Macedonians”?

    You write: “I, for one, am sick and tired already of your feeble attempts to derail every discussion.”

    And I for one am sick and tied of the evasion of self-righteous Greek haters that ignore FYROM’s behavior. They seem to believe they can utter the words “human rights” that somehow puts them beyond severe mistakes in moral judgment.

    You write: “And I don’t think any serious minded person buys the whole conspiracy idea. That all this bad press about Greece’s treatment of immigrants has to do with the name issue.

    That’s not what I said (straw man) I’m suggesting that I only take those seriously that protect Greece’s rights not to have their identity and territory usurped as credible human rights activists (because they are at least morally consistent and protect our rights too). The rest seem to harbour prejudices against Greeks.

    You write: “Most of us have no opinion on the matter, apart from wanting it to be resolved. Saying that any negative press about Greece stems from it is just nonsense.”

    Where have a said such a thing here David? Yet another straw man to silence valid criticism. I’m not saying that Greece is beyond criticism but again not by those with an overly hostile tone for relatively minor issues while brushing over major ones. (and not only the name dispute)

    For instance, how much effort have you spent on looking into potential war crimes by the UK and other nations in the “co-coalition of the willing” David? (e.g. Wikileaks torture documents seems to show the US breached the Geneva and UN conventions against torture) And how is the search for Saddans WMDs coming along David? You know the ones that hundreds of thousands of Iraqis DIED and suffered for. Are the politicians in the nations that argued for that that war, based on fraudulent justifications, ever going to face criminal investigation?

    When the priorities of people like you are realigned, I can take claims of “human rights” objectives more seriously (a saying about the mote in ones eye comes to mind) Anybody and their mother can claim to stand for human rights. Moral consistency is what demonstrates that. So tell me Daid is the UK and US currently being principled in the name dispute?

    “It is no wonder that, in matters of politics in the Balkans, Greece feels misunderstood. It cannot understand why, after it stood alone with the United Kingdom against the forces of fascism between 28 October 1940–Ohi day, as it is still called–and 27 April 1941, when Athens finally fell, its former allies now appear to be taking the part of forces against which it stood, especially when, after the second world war, it endured those further four years of civil war to hold the line against the communist advance to the Aegean. That was done for the United States and for the United Kingdom especially–the world powers of the time–and those Governments objected, in 1944, to Tito’s change of the name of Vardar Banovina.” (Edward O’Hara, House of Commons Hansard Debates for 9 May 1995, Column 602)

  18. Guardian are Greek haters
    October 31, 2010    

    Incentially David writes “bad press about Greece’s treatment of immigrants”

    While I think standards in holding facilities should be to minimum levels those are not “immigrants”… they are ILLEGAL immigrants. (i.e. people that entering someone else’s nation illegally then have the audacity to lecture the people of that country about “mistreatment”)

    Greece isn’t perfect but in the real world practice minorities in Greece live in one of the safest countries in the world. Some minority in America has a far greater chance being killed walking the streets than Greece. Greece has been one of the safest countries in the world for decades. (which further makes me angry about the over the top reporting that portrays Greece as some sort of fascist or terrorist state) Methinks some better start looking a little more closely in the mirror before overly criticizing others.

    http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_percap-crime-murders-per-capita

  19. Cinzano
    October 31, 2010    

    David Walker,

    If you bothered to read as far as four years ago you will see how DD allowed British and American racists on this blog to attack Greeks and southern European people. She allowed racists to pour out their xenophobic bile and hatred against Greek people, allowing them to say that Greek culture is inherently homophobic, their nature as people is to be lazy and untrustworthy, and they are inherently corrupt, etc etc…Things which, if said against Nigerian people for example would be rightly criticised and labelled as racist. But Greeks were fair game it seems because DD allowed this hate speech to carry on for years. In fact, she befriended and even laughed along with the racists who made these comments.

    When Greek racists made similar comments about immigrants on here blog, she banned them. Non-greeks like myself noticed this double standard and i reserve the right to “attack” DD for it and challenge her agenda for having this totally negative and one-sided blog in which her only achievement thus far has been to demonise, patronise and totally misrepresent a whole nation of people (and Southern European people in general).

    Devious Diva gets “attacked” on here for her totally biased and one-sided approach to her “journalism” in which she cherry picks articles which reinforce unfortunate and sometimes offensive stereotypes of Southern European people.
    Do your research next time before piping-in with your defence of offensive stereotyping and the outright racism of this hateful blog. You need to read more than just a “couple of months” worth of this hateblog if you are to form an opinion of any value …

  20. Cinzano
    October 31, 2010    

    Guardian are Greek haters,
    I think that Western hypocrites like David Walker and DD should be reminded that Southern Europen countries have generally poor holding facilities for illegal immigrants, usually because they are relatively poor but they are also “frontline” countries for immigration, meaning they have to process a huge, almost impossible number of immigrants. A number which no Western country have to deal with.

    Perhaps the hate-bloggers would be mindful to remember our own country’s treatment of immigrants is ABYSMAL before casting aspersions on poorer countries such as Greece and Spain. My country (and DD’s) for ewaxmple, doesn’t have to deal with the huge number of immgrants which Greece has to handle, we have the resources and facilites which Greece lacks but but we Brits still imprison immigrant children.
    http://www.dianeabbott.org.uk/news/press/news.aspx?p=102553

    Americans just shoot illegal immigrants at the border
    http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSN16251993

    So, Southern Europeans should not be taking ANY lessons in how to deal with illgeal immigrants from condescending Brit or American bloggers, thank you very much.

    David Walker and DD just keep walking on, as if nothing ever happens in our own land of hypocrites and xenophobes, while continuing to accuse the uncouth southern Europeans of human rights violations ….

  21. The Verve
    October 31, 2010    

    btw. I am Greek and I feel ashamed of this situation happening in my country. I hope that Greece is shamed enough to do something about it.

    Dude or dudette, I am greek and I feel no shame for this situation for a number of reasons. The hellenic state never caused the problems that forced these folks to leave their countries. They were never invited or offered job opportunities in greece or anywhere else in europe, they entered illegally. They simply assumed that everything would be hunky-dory the minute they stepped inside “fortress europe”.

    Sorry but life doesn’t work out that way, you have to assume responsibility for your actions. Do silly things and the outcome will most likely not be a happy one. There are plenty of countries where you won’t even have the luxury of a filthy, over-crowded refugee camp waiting for you – they just shoot you in the head and be done with you if you’re partial to a bit of border fence jumping. So give greece a +1 for at least taking the less bloody route.

    And let me tell you something else, since you seem to be guilt-tripping there. What’s the point of being ashamed of anything, really we’re not in the frigging garden of eden. Don’t you see the what constant negative press can do to people, it’s a conditioning tool (just like the bible used to be….and still is for some folks). The mass media plays the social engineering game and has done so for a very long time, it’s all smoke & mirrors and we are the guinea pigs. No wonder people at large no longer trust the msm and are turning in droves to alternative news sources.

    We are who we are, we have our faults and we have our good points. No point in beating ourselves down and feeling diminished.

  22. Guardian are Greek haters
    November 1, 2010    

    @Cinzano and Verve

    In my opinion, the term “human rights” is sometimes meaningless because its often co-opted by ultra-nationalists (that manipulatively just add “human rights to their organization names to try mask their purely nationalist agenda)…. governments (some of whom help partially fund many allegedly impartial NGOs like Helsinki)… fundamentalist mystics (and not only Islam I’m talking about here.. there are extremist Christians and Jews too)…. mass media editors (e.g Fox news reminds me of Soviet era propagandists)…. and far leftists. (as I’ve noticed the far left is disproportionately represented in human rights organizations)

    I think most mean well when they claim to support human rights but many don’t entirely think through that all any self-described “human rights” organization represents is just a group of individuals with some sort of specific agenda. (that may or may not match their own philosophical views)

    A HUMAN right requires the application of that right to be applicable across all national, ethnic, religious, economic, and political boundaries… not just the self-interest or emotive cause dujour. Given differences in cultural and political outlooks between individuals deciding what should be a right for every human is not always an easy task.

    I do not claim to have all the answers myself (just my own POV) but I see the role of human rights organizations is a counterbalance to state authority NOT as something to be viewed coming from some sort of infallible moral authority (which unfortunately many of those that claim to support human rights self-righteously think they are simply because they add the words “human rights” into their sentences)

    In my opinion, the voice of morality is to be found in the dialectic.. that is… a rational human being analyzes the views of individuals of other political views, human rights organizations, media outlets, governments, academics, the issues at hand, etc….. and then decides based on available evidence what should be a universal human right. (i.e. not only a right that we want for ourselves but a right we are willing to extend to others too)

    This is why although I strongly support the existence of NGOs (even when I disagree with something they do) … if their tone is overly demonizing towards others … or they contradict themselves … or their alleged “human right” goals do not also consider pragmatic realities of the moment…

    … I don’t think we should ever be afraid to criticize them back as harshly back as they do others. Alleged “human rights” have been used many times in human history as justification for extreme acts of evil. (see Stalin. See Mao.. who justified every atrocity under the alleged common good). Absolutely no one is above moral evaluation. (including myself of course)

    And this is precisely why I have no moral qualms slamming certain organizations that now call FYROM “Macedonians”. (and why every time Greece is criticized by one of the those organizations I bring this up)

    I didn’t use to care at all about Greek national interests (beyond my family) until I noticed many western media outlets seem to consistently hide the fact their own nations used to deny the existence of “ethnic Macedonians” (essentially the invention of Yugoslav communists out of prior former ethnic Bulgarian “Macedonians”).

    How can I now take those same people’s claims of “human rights” seriously (rather than simply prejudices) when so many are dishonestly pretending only Greeks have ever objected to FYROM’s choice of name? (pretending their own nations have always been “neutrals” just minding their own business)

    e.g US government in 1944 (and the UK supported Greece as well)
    This (US) Government considers talk of Macedonian “nation”, Macedonian “Fatherland”, or Macedonia “national consciousness” to be unjustified demagoguery representing no ethnic nor political reality, and sees in its present revival a possible cloak for aggressive intentions against Greece.” – U.S State Department Foreign Relations Vol. VIII Washington D.C. Circular Airgram – 868.014/26 Dec. 1944
    http:// tinyurl.com/nel46d

    It logically follows if “ethnic Macedonians” existed prior to 1944 (since many FYROM nationalists now portray themselves as direct descendants of ancient Macedonians and Macedonia Greece as “occupied” right?)… then the US and UK government were both complicit (along with Greeks) in an attempted genocide again “ethnic Macedonians”. (since both nations supplied weapons to Greece to fight communist irredentist terrorists during the Greek civil war and flatly denied the existence of “ethnic Macedonians” at the time)

    Either these alleged supporters of “human rights” need to go after the US and UK government for a past attempt at genocide of “ethnic Macedonians” (the same allegation some alleged human rights groups and FYROM nationalists harass Greeks with)…

    or

    Stop referencing FYROM as “Macedonia”, and strongly denounce FYROM’s blatantly obvious attempt to usurp the identity of Greeks and irredentist behavior. (much like cold war communists did)

    It’s not remotely difficultt o find massive evidence of FYROM irredentism (vis-a-vis manipulation of the name to portray Macedonia Greece as part of some liberated “occupied” whole) … for someone showing even an iota of sincere effort)
    http://www.google.ca/images?hl=en&q=united%20macedonia&um=1&ie=UTF-8&source=og&sa=N&tab=ni&biw=1797&bih=981

    .

  23. Guardian are Greek haters
    November 1, 2010    

    @Cinzano and Verve

    In my opinion, the term “human rights” is sometimes meaningless because its often manipulated by ultra-nationalists (that just add “human rights to their organization names to try and mask their purely nationalist agenda)…. governments (some of whom help fund many allegedly impartial NGOs)… fundamentalist mystics (and not only Islam I’m talking about here.. there are extremist Christians and Jews too)…. mass media editors (e.g Fox news reminds me of Soviet era propagandists these days)…. and far leftists. (as I’ve noticed the far left is disproportionately represented in human rights organizations)

    I think most mean well when they claim to support human rights but many don’t entirely think through that all any self-described “human rights” organization represents is just a group of individuals with some sort of specific agenda. (that may or may not match their own philosophical views)

    A HUMAN right requires the application of that right to be applicable across all national, ethnic, religious, economic, and political boundaries… not just the self-interest or emotive cause dujour. Given differences in cultural and political outlooks between individuals deciding what should be a right for every human is not always an easy task.

    I do not claim to have all the answers myself (just my own POV) but I see the role of human rights organizations is a counterbalance to state authority NOT as something to be viewed coming from some sort of infallible moral authority (which unfortunately many of those that claim to support human rights self-righteously think they are simply because they add the words “human rights” into their sentences)

    In my opinion, the voice of morality is to be found in the dialectic.. that is… a rational human beings analyze the views of individuals of other political views, try to honestly assess how much of their view is distorted by perceived self-interest, professional human rights organizations, the mass media, governments, academics, and of course the issues at hand… and then decides based on all the available evidence what should be a universal human right. (i.e. not only a right that we want for ourselves but a right we are willing to extend to others too)

  24. A concerned citizen
    November 1, 2010    

    DD: until you deal with the very serious problem on your blog with Trolls, few serious people will post here. Many of us have just stopped saying anything because of the vileness and pure hatred in some of your posters. When decent people write well-informed comments here they are attacked viciously by your collection of internet trolls. Many of these people are posting on fascist sites but are usually denied a hearing in civilised internet communities. They love this blog because you allow them to abuse it.

    This is not the way to run a blog: sorry to be so rude, but it has to be said.

  25. A concerned citizen
    November 1, 2010    

    DD, please stop the trolls here. Decent people are afraid to post with their attacks.

  26. Post Disagreement
    November 2, 2010    

    I wonder what it is that DD, ray of sunshine, “David Walker”, etc.
    propose.

    just open the flood gates and stamp approved to close to 90,000 illegal immigrants a year.
    even if 25% of that number were legit asylum seekers Greece even when it was not in a financial crisis could not handle that.

    Greece is not a country to immigrate to thats the long and the short of it.

    Greece is not a big in territory , resources, jobs, social service system is below average, its not France its not Australia etc.

    BTW most of these people are Muslim and travel through several Muslim nations..
    Are not the UMA (community) supposed to help their fellow believers out?
    Why dump them off on Christian/Secular Europe?

  27. deviousdiva
    November 3, 2010    

    Hi Mia, Thank you for asking about the book. It’s taking longer than I originally thought but I’m hoping to finish by the end of this year or early next.
    Your question about whether countries will choose the “best” applicants not to send back to Greece and dump the others, is interesting but I don’t know the answer to that question. It’s possible but I hope that the authorities are thinking about human rights and not some other sinister agenda.

  28. deviousdiva
    November 3, 2010    

    @A concerned citizen
    Yes. I have a problem on my blog. From BOTH sides of the spectrum. I am attacked for moderating. I am attacked for not moderating. In fact, I am attacked for simply posting, no matter what I write. You tell me… should I simply ban everyone except those that agree with me? Or do I ban particular people and then get a barrage of abusive emails from them and deal with it alone? I really don’t know any more. Whatever I do I will be criticised, threatened, insulted and generally abused.

    I have chosen to respond to those who write to me in a civil way and ignore those who I have nothing to say to any more. I think people are mature enough to read the comments and make up their own mind whether to write or not.

    In the world of blogging, it has become very tense generally and this has meant that moderate voices often decide not to write for fear of getting into arguments with fanatics. It’s sad but it’s ok. What I post is what’s important and that’s what most people read.. IMO most people these days don’t even have time to read the comments as there is so much information and networking going on. It seems as if only the obsessives here bother come and insult this blog on a regular basis and to be honest, I don’t waste even one second caring about them.

    As far as I can tell, they are people who have nothing to contribute to the world, nothing to say and too much time on their hands.

  29. Cinzano
    November 3, 2010    

    What I post is what’s important and that’s what most people read. IMO most people these days don’t even have time to read the comments

    Charming. So, you think that it’s only your opinions that are worth reading, and the rest of us are wasting our time sharing our opinions on your blog becuase nobody reads them.
    What a self-centred, arrogant “diva” you are.

    Most people who come across this blog read your alarmist headlines and are totally aghast at your totally one-sided approach to journalism. Their faith in human nauture is restored again when they read the comments from other contributors and realise that there are people out their who attack your stereotyping, and your totally biased approach to reporting a “story”.

    DD: “What’s important is what I post, not what others post”. YOU’VE GOT A BLOODY CHEEK.

  30. deviousdiva
    November 3, 2010    

    Yes Cinzano, some of you are wasting your time posting your comments on my blog. You, for example, have contributed NOTHING for ages apart from to say, time and time again, how awful I am. Yes, Cinzano, my blog is one-sided (and I am NOT a journalist which I’ve stated many, many times). My blog is about human rights issues in Greece. That’s it. Narrow, focused, one-sided if you like.

    Believe it or not, at least 10 different people have emailed me RECENTLY (and several people have said it on the blog) that they are totally fed up with you personally Cinzano. Their faith is not restored by you or the likes of you. In fact, the opposite. Most people are NOT aghast at my blog or its “headlines” but about the issues within the posts eg Roma rights, asylum recognition,detention centres etc etc.

    Call it cheek. Call it what you like. The posts are more important than the repetitive drivel coming from the few very vocal people like yourself. Please try and be clear about your definitions. The posts are the pieces I put up on the blog, not the comments I make. I did not say that my opinion in the comments was more important than anyone elses( well, let me be honest… I don’t consider your comments important because you don’t actually say anything apart from attacking me and my blog)

    I said I wasn’t going to respond to you again but hey, I’m human too, believe it or not. Carry on reading your own agenda into everything I write Cinzano. Just wanted to let you know that most people (including me) think you are wasting your time.

  31. Cinzano
    November 3, 2010    

    That’s a little unfair DD, i did give you the idea of posting up the organ donor links (and i contributed 50 euros to your fund). I think i do conribute to your blog too and i don’t think you should be dismissing people’s opinions and efforts so flippantly and arrogantly.
    Even if my opinions run contrary to yours, they are still a “contribution” and i think you’re being very rude to dismiss your contributors’ opinons with your dismissive comments.

    “What I post is what’s important and that’s what most people read.. IMO most people these days don’t even have time to read the comments ..”

    Awful, awful comment.

    at least 10 different people have emailed me RECENTLY (and several people have said it on the blog) that they are totally fed up with you personally Cinzano.

    Your friends can ignore me if they don’t like what i have to say. But i would encourage them to join in and CONTRIBUTE to the debates with their comments, and say what they have to say for the benefit of the blog, not make snide comments to you in an email, calling for my banning.
    My comments are not breaking any rules and i am not personally abusive to anyone – i just say my piece in the comments section and move on. As human rights advocates, i do not think it apt that some people want to silence me by asking you to ban me, and you are intelligent enough to know that banning me will not look good, denying free speech to someone who has not violated any rules…..

    Just wanted to let you know that most people (including me) think you are wasting your time.

    You have the ego the size of the Hindenburg. What makes you think that “most people” agree with you? You may have received 10 supportive emails but that’s not necessarily evidence that “most people” agree with you. Anyway, who said that this is a popularity contest?

    Just let people contribute to your blog and allow a broad range of opinions without you trying to score points about who has the most support etc…Life is too short, live and let live, you have a blog which encourages comment, let people contribute without you belittling your contibutors by suggesting that they’re “wasting their time” by making a contribution to your blog, and stop being such an attention seeking diva….

  32. Guardian are Greek haters
    November 3, 2010    

    Deviousdiva writes: “Whatever I do I will be criticised, threatened, insulted and generally abused.”

    Perhaps if you more carefully considered your own words and attitude towards others you might understand how others perceive you. What you need to understand is what you consider “moderate” of yourself… others might see as “criticizing”, “insulting”, “threatening”, and “abusive” to them.

    If one wishes to have a blog devoted to demonizing others (rather than say a blog devoted to finding ways to improve something) it’s perfectly acceptable free speech. However, one must also accept that we ourselves will face a backlash from those we abuse, insult and harass. (unless you are telling us you expect others to be silent when you blanket criticize and only listen only to your own philosophical views on ethics???)

    I, like you, consider myself a moderate. However, I define moderation as being moderate relative to something-not just a word empty of substance simply meant to portray my personal views as being all the correct ones. (i.e. I have no doubts some of my views are flawed but it’s always far easier to notice the flaws in others rather than in ourselves)

    You claim moderation but in the side panel of this blog is written “Strong and independent grassroots organizations are key for Roma to become equal stakeholders in society.”. In my opinion, by singling out “Roma” it automatically eliminates this blog from being about “human rights”. A blog about “human rights’ cannot narrow down itself to a single people (else its just another form of politics and nationalism masquerading as human rights)

    As a moderate I’m neither far left nor far right. I’m a swing voter between centrist parties-and one that tries to still remain open to ideas on both sides of the aisles. I am neither an extreme nationalist nor an extreme of anti-nationalist. I see both national and personal self-interest as something necessary for survival but not to the point where one unfairly commits injustices on others for the sake of alleged “national security”. (fear is the tool of tyrants though out history)

    And as a moderate I see many Greek citizens as either too far to the right or left of the political spectrum (although usually too far to the left is far more common). The far right is in the loony bin and detached from reality. The far left tends to be smarter but it too can be destructive. Putting aside virtually all the domestic terrorism that has happened in Greece for decades has been leftists…. leftists like to rant and rant about others about their personal views as to what constitutes a human right. (i.e. another way of saying what they expect the wealthy to pay for vis-a-vis tax collection) A government “right” and “a nice to have” are two different things though.

    If Greece was in better fiscal and political shape if could afford to be generous. At the moment though we can’t even take care of ourselves (on EU life support) so who are we kidding that we are taking care of others? The money for the causes you argue for aren’t coming out of the pockets of Greek citizens , its coming out of the pockets of EU taxpayers. Leftists are currently simply arguing for new ways for Greece to economically burden the EU. Instead of trying to find ways to pay our debts, they are looking for ways to make them worse.

    The problem with the far left is it when it comes time to pull money from their own pocket to pay for one of their causes (without the use of government force to collect taxes from someone else)… they quickly hide their wallets and break into songs of Kumbaya. They are first rate accusing others of something-and second rate at producing something of value themselves.

    If all the leftists that complained about others actually took personal responsibility and produced something other than their words (e.g industry, manufacturing, etc..)… then Greece would not be in the economic straights it currently is AND would be a net contributors to the EU rather than the perpetual sponge (since we would actually have the money to pay for everything rather than say wasting our lives away blogging about the inhumanity of it all)

    In fact, if far leftists in Greece that argue how the “fascist” government should spend money on this or that… payed their taxes and produced something other than their empty words…those immigrant facilities would be in excellent shape today.

  33. Cinzano
    November 3, 2010    

    Excellent post Guardian.

  34. Guardian are Greek haters
    November 3, 2010    

    To give substance to my claim Greeks are unfair targets of demonization (including my mainstream media).

    Just pulled from the BBC…

    “Most illegal migrants trying to enter the EU arrive first in Greece, whose treatment of them has been criticised.”

    “Under the EU’s Dublin II Regulation, asylum seekers generally have to be processed by the first EU member state they come to. That means many have been sent back to Greece.”

    “But in Greece far fewer asylum seekers are granted refugee status than in northern European countries.”
    Eliasson.”

    “in the second quarter of this year 90% of the migrants detected trying to enter the EU illegally were on the Greek land border, the EU border agency Frontex says.”
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-11682905

    Of course “far fewer are processed” dah. You think it might be because Greece have far far more illegals? (both net and relative to its population) The BBC article attempts to dishonestly phrase things as if somehow the UK is taking those illegals in because of conditions in Greece… when in fact they should have been talking those illegals ages ago. (else stop whining about Greece’s problems handling massive numbers of illegals)

    Greece, population 10M (essentially bankrupt and with a fair chunk of its population of illegal origin) is somehow now morally obligated to process huge numbers of illegals? Relatively speaking Greece’s situations is akin to several million illegals showing up in the UK and expecting amnesty. How about Greece ship over just a few hundred thousand of those illegals to the UK so that English taxpayers can pay for them? No? Come on are you British racists or something?

    Or how about this one from Wallstreet Journal (in reference to some far leftist wack jobs that sent bombs via mail a few days ago)

    “If Greece is to avoid becoming a pariah state of Europe, it’s going to have to stamp out such acts of terror once and for all.”
    http://blogs.wsj.com/source/2010/11/03/greece-terror-be-damned/

    Give me a fricken break. How successful has the US been at “stamping out acts of terror once and for all”? Terrorism exists in most states (much like crime) and is certainly not something that is easily completely erased. There is always some loone that attempts to use violence rather than dialog to deal with disputes. In the US they even occasionally vote them in for President. (who then goes about and kills citizens in other nations as if citizens in those other nations are under US legal jurisdiction)

    Furthermore far more people have been killed in the US due to acts of terrorism than in Greece. Tim McVeigh alone killed ten times the number of people killed in Greece due to all terrorist acts combined FOR DECADES. Statistically speaking a US citizen literally has over 300% chance of getting murdered in the US rather than Greece…. but listening to this vitriol you’d think they opposite was true.

    I’m fed up with all the Greek haters. They endlessly demonize Greeks with no regard for the reality behind Greece’s excellent human rights record (relative to most countries)… or concern for looking in the mirror at their own actions. (e.g. most US and UK media outlets are in denial that their nations appear to have been complicit in war crimes vis-a-vis torture and a war that lead to the needless death and suffering of hundreds of thousands of Iraqis…. founded on clearly fraudulent claims by their leaders)

  35. deviousdiva
    November 4, 2010    

    Cinzano, I also offered to return your contribution, if you wish to remember ALL the facts. Since you made that contribution, which I took in good faith and thanked you for, you have done nothing but attack me. That has made me very suspicious about your motives. And the offer of returning your money still stands. I will not allow you to use that as another weapon to use against me.

  36. November 4, 2010    

    but in the side panel of this blog is written “Strong and independent grassroots organizations are key for Roma to become equal stakeholders in society.”

    This is exactly what I mean about some people critisising absolutely everything I put on my blog. The side panel you refer to is my facebook page where I post interesting articles about all kinds of things. If you bothered to look it changes quite often (sometimes daily) depending on what I’ve posted there. Ah well, I remain hopeful that one day those two or three who continually do this, will actually read what I write and not jump to conclusions based on scanning. Sometimes you have to investigate a little further…

  37. two cents worth
    November 4, 2010    

    i do hope that this situation will be resolved soon, so that asylum seekers can find the safety they are searching for, and the sympathy they need. i don’t like the attitude that many people who are against asylum seekers coming to greece seem to have about ‘our’ country and ‘our’ land. i’ve seen immigrants coming in to greece likened to strangers coming and setting up camp in one’s back garden. to those people, i would like to say this: greece is not ‘your’ property. the country doesn’t belong to anyone. it is just a piece of land. maybe you were born on it. maybe you chose to live on it. maybe you even bought a house on it. maybe you are visiting it for a while. maybe you are just passing through. but it’s not ‘yours’, and it’s not anyone else’s. it’s just land, and we’re just people. people who were born here are no more important than people who are just passing through, or using the company to escape from troubles in the place they were born in. yes, greece has financial troubles. yes, the country is struggling to cope with the number of immigrants coming in, now that there are fewer ways for people to enter europe. but let’s not forget that asylum seekers are people, just like us, but with far more troubled lives. i hope i never need to leave the place where i have made a home and travel across countries seeking asylum, leaving my family, my loved ones and my possessions to go in search of safety. i hope you don’t, either. i hope none of us are ever held in a dirty, cramped detention centre where we are treated as less than the human beings we are. can we all try to hope that, and to make it happen, for everyone else in ‘our’ world, too, please?

  38. Guardian are Greek haters
    November 5, 2010    

    What a bunch of far leftist gibberish.

    You write: “i would like to say this: greece is not ‘your’ property. the country doesn’t belong to anyone”

    Of course a country belongs to someone. It belongs to legal citizens of that country (which is why every single country on earth has a legal immigration process, passports and guarded borders)

    Your “victims” are individuals that have consciously broken the laws of several nations. Facilities should be improved but for much the same reason one improves facilities for other kinds of criminals. Not because they are “victims” but because we try not to hold out humanity to the lowest rug.

    Those “victims” could have applied to legally immigrate to the US and UK no (far larger and better equipped to handle the influx) The UK, US, Russia and many other nations could have accepted them no? So why didn’t they? Are they all racists?

    Instead of complaining about just Greece, why don’t you pull out your own money out of our pocket book to pay to improve conditions for those “victims”?

    Let me guess again. When it comes time for you to pay out of your own pocket… the answer is no. Surprise surprise. Generous with other people’s security, money and property but selfish with your own.

  39. Guardian are Greek haters
    November 5, 2010    

    @deviousdiva

    As you noted it points to a Facebook page which I mistook as your focus. I have never visited this website before so I retract my comment on the Roma. However, I have to say based on the poor commentary my feeling for this blog as being that of a stereotypical self-righteous far leftist remains.

    In my opinion, the problem with far leftists is they spend way way too much time demonzing others- and not enough time fixing actual issues in their own personal lives (which would help increase government coffers to pay to fix issues like this)

    They seemingly expect government to fix every inequality as if its some sort of endless money pit (see Greece’s massive debt due to massive government overspending). Unfortunately when comes time to pull out money from their own wallet to fix something… well then… they often change the discussion.

    The far left mentality will be the death of Greece if we let it. It seeks to satiate emotions rather than pay attention to reality and reason. It poisons our government fiances. It poisons our political dialog. It poisons are ability to produce goods and services. It even poisons our national identity.

    To be frank, I see many far leftists much like I see Stalin, Kim Jong, and Pol Pot. They endlessly talk about the “common good” but when it comes time for them to pull out money their own wallet…. what’s mine is mine and what’s yours is ours. They lie not only to rational people about their fake generosity and caring (all in words and little in substance) but they even lie to themselves.

    Feel free to prove my stereotype wrong by selling your worldly belongs to pay for those poor poor victims… rather than “selfishly” clinging on to your assets.

    Of course you won’t though. Like with all far leftists you’ll just write a fake narrative of yourself as being on some sort moral pedestal… while you carefully protect your own assets. It’s always others to blame rather than your own actions. And if anyone criticizes back such emotionally manipulative philosophical nonsense… you’ll label yourself a victim to silence criticism. (rather than consider the possibility we know what we are talking about and you are in the moral wrong with irresponsible and unfair demonization of others)

  40. Guardian are Greek haters
    November 5, 2010    

    The title “This is not my country”… speaks for itself. I’m browsing through past stories and the whole purpose of this blog seems to be demonize an entire nation.

    You claim to be for tolerance but in practice you seem to be a virulent supporter of it when it comes to Greeks. A sane human being occasionally criticizes. Only someone full of hate dedicates major portions of their life to demonizing a specific people.

  41. Guardian are Greek haters
    November 5, 2010    

    I went to the facebook page and read the about you.

    “Devious Diva is an Englishwoman who blogs from Greece about human rights, parenting and difference at This is Not My Country. She’s one of the few writers regularly reporting on the lives of the Roma, who consistently suffer human rights abuses in countries throughout Europe.:

    Why do you maintain you are “English” if you now live in Greece? If land is just land then why don’t you refer yourself as Greek? Why do you hold on to your English identity… yet simultaneously try to undermine that of Greeks? (with apparently years of ranting against Greeks under your belt).

    Why don’t you start a blog devoting all your energy supporting an open door policy for immigration to the UK instead? (who at last check have a much larger military than Greece to patrol their borders as well as nuclear weapons… while they complain about other countries even researching the possibility of having them)

    Why don’t you have a blog focused on all the human rights violations in the UK instead of Greece? Surely you can find plenty of violations to write about. One could easily spend years writing on the lives of the thousands of average Iraqi families unnecessarily slaughtered and suffering due to American and English bullets. (as well as those handed over by Americans and British soldiers to be tortured by the Iraqi government)

    Or how about the British and US government decision to help fund the erasure of Palestinians? Ethnic cleansing right in front of your eyes… while you complain about the paltry issues in Greece… where a minority is safe to walk the streets without being killed by the government… or having their property forcibly taken away from by the Greek government. Does the Greek government have an obcene law that prevents someone non-Greek from marrying ethnic Greek…or would that be Israel… with a dead silence from the UK and US governments about clearly Nazi-like eugenicist laws that prevent non-Jews from legally marrying someone Jewish?)

    Or lets take the Roma. Why do you portray them as constantly victims? Don’t they themselves have a moral responsibility to participate as responsible citizens too? Isn’t it a fact Roma are statistically prone to extremely high levels of crime? Do you honestly believe every EU nation intentionally singles them out… or is this a case that they themselves also carry a moral burden for their erratic behavior? (much like some black communities in the US and indigenous people in the Americas that complain about some boogieman “whiteman” conspiracy)

    Are Greeks running around the world blowing things up in other people nations the last hundred years… or have they stuck to their borders for over 80 years now? (having been attacked… on their own property…. by Albanians, Bulgarians, Yugoslavians, Germans, Turks, and Italians within that time frame… and now with the UK and US both pretending they don’t notice the former self-identifying ethnic Bulgarians (of FYROM) insane attempt to rebrand themselves into ancient Macedonians)

    Were the majority of Greeks complicit in the attempted genocide against Jews during WW2… or were they one of the few nations to actually fight the Nazis head on? (despite facing massively superior numbers)

    Were the majority of Greeks complicit in the attempt to spread communist tyranny to the world… or were they one of the first nations to spill blood fighting for their freedom? (leading to the deaths of 120, 000 Greeks in a civil war militarily subsidized by foreign powers)

    Does Greece have the highest homogeneity rate in the Europe…. or in practice would that be countries like Finland, Iceland, Ireland, Albania, Hungary and Portugal?

    Did only Greece rename officially Turkish cities after the Balkan wars…. or would that include countries like todays’ FYROM (that no longer reference their captital under its Turkish name “Uskub”)

    Are Greeks disrespecting other nations by illegally entering their borders…. or are others disrespecting the borders of Greece? (with relative numbers that make America’s border concerns with Mexico seem trivial)

    Has Greece had one of the highest murder rates in the world for decades… or one of the lowest? (substantially less than the US and historically even less than the UK… both of whom claim to be civilized)

    ….

    As I said, how can someone Greek take your endless rants against our nation as anything but your personal prejudices at work if you spend such a ridiculously disproportionate amount of time criticizing one ethnic group…. Greeks? Surely there is many more people to also criticize on this earth? (e.g Where is your criticism of the bizarre, racist, and dangerous behavior of FYROM ultra nationalists.. that now portray 1/3 of Greece as “occupied” territory?)

    I would agree Greece deserves serious criticism for it fiances but I’ve had it with the over-the-top vitriol directed Greeks. Every negative event that happens in Greece these days is being stitched together into an endlessly demonizing narrative… by those that seemingly only passively look in the mirror when it comes to their own records on human rights these last few years.

    http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/world/wikileaks-documents-fuel-calls-for-us-uk-to-investigate-torture-allegations/story-e6frg6so-1225943068178

    http://www.google.ca/images?hl=en&q=torture%20iraq&um=1&ie=UTF-8&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&biw=1797&bih=981

    Poor poor Divious diva… that likes to spread ethnic hatred against Greeks with her endless vitriol against Greece… then portrays herself as the victim when someone finally calls out her hateful and abusive behavior.

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