The only thing necessary for the persistence of evil is for enough good people to do nothing

Promise for Athens Mosque

As many long time readers of this blog will know, I have been following the lack of an Athens mosque for many years. Athens is the only European capital that does not have one and Muslims are forced to gather in make-shift mosques around the capital.

The main objection has come from the powerful Greek Orthodox church which has enormous power and influence over state affairs. There is no separation of church and state in Greece. The church has been fairly successful in mobilising local communities against the building of a mosque as well.

I imagine that most people can see that causing anger and resentment in the Muslim community is not the best way forward and that the building of a mosque is not going to cause the collapse of the Greek Orthodox church. Building good relationships between communities is a positive and courageous step. No doubt there will be objections as usual but I sincerely hope that the current PASOK government can manage to follow through their recent promise

Via Kathimerini

THE government has said it will build a mosque in Athens for a growing number of Muslim immigrants in the Greek capital, following years of delays. Tens of thousands of Muslims in Athens currently gather at informal prayer houses in converted apartments and warehouses. The government said on April 28 it would pay for the immediate development of a mosque on the grounds of a former Navy facility near central Athens.


  1. gurmit
    May 4, 2010    

    That is good that it will be built.Better late than never. Why is the government going to pay for it? Is it because of some historical stuff stemming from the population exchange between Greece and Turkey in the early part of the twentieth century?
    Anyway, I am glad that the Moslems will get their mosque in Athens.I’m quite sure in Canada, the government doesn’t pay for anyone’s religious places though it may provide some grants for some aspects of religion and allows donations at religious places to be tax free.

    Anyway, I am glad the Moslems will get their mosque in Athens though the makeshift ones are still mosques and probably better in some ways than a government paid one. Places ordinary people establish with dedication and love from the richest to the poorest are better than something just paid for by some government in my opinion.

  2. The Verve
    May 4, 2010    

    The goverment shouldn’t have to pay for the mosque, besides it can’t afford to now anyway. By all means muslims should have a proper mosque to pray in, there’s nothing wrong with that, but it’s ridiculous for any government to be ponying up money for any one religion. This money should come from the muslim community, tens of thousands of muslim immigrants are more than capable of funding this.

    Furthermore the land on which the mosque is to be built should not be given away for free. It should be sold instead. This is 100% fair and in line with how most countries deal with religious institutions. Turkey should have no say in the internal affairs of Greece, they should rather look at their own horrific human rights violations before they can even start talking about what neighbouring countries do.

    This pandering to muslims is also unfair to so many followers of other (mostly underrepresented) religions. Are there no buddhists, hindus, taoists, rosicrucians and neo-pagans to name a few to be found in Greece? I’m sure there are by they don’t expect the goverment to give them any freebies. Are their religions less important? Are they in some ways inferior to the followers of Islam whereby no free land & buildings is specially allocated to them? Constant double-standards is something we should be moving away from and not towards.

  3. Cinzano
    May 5, 2010    

    The Verve,

    I think everyone has the right to practice their religion and i think it’s the responsiblity of the governemnt to provide for a place of worship.

    It’s good to hear that the Greek government has agreed to provide a mosque for Greece’s Muslims.

    Unfortunately, just a few days ago, my, DD’s and pj’s COUNTRY (UK) has refused planning permission for a Mosque to be built in a predominantly white and snobby area of Britain. We Brits don’t mind Mosques being built in “paki areas” in the poorest and most rundown areas of the UK but we don’t want Mosques near our predominantly white and affluent areas.

    “Surrey Heath Borough Council have finally bowed to the inevitable and refused planning permission for a Mosque in Camberley despite initially approving permission.”

    Go Greece. They are committing to put aside money and building a Mosque for the Muslim comminuty in a time of economic crisis. Wherear OUR COUNTRY is denying Mosques for our Muslim community (and we don’t have the money problems Greece has, we just have racsim and Islamophobia problems…).

    We don’t want a mosque in Sandhurst because we think that Muslims will have a go at the Queen during military parades, lol. How paranoid and racist, are we? Unbelievable…

  4. gurmit
    May 5, 2010    


    I don’t know the particulars about Greece, but I can’t for a moment see any government paying for a minority’s place of worship in entirety unless there is a law about it or some other compelling reason or reasons. In Pakistan, for example, the government paid for restoring old, historic Sikhtemples left behind by Sikhs in 1946 during the partition of Punjab instead of destroying them as they could have (there was certainly enough bloodshed through organized violence on both sides to warrant anything). In part, they probably didn’t destroy them because a lot of Moslems there do have respect for the founder of Sikhism, who was born in what is now Pakistan, but now they also have a lot of tourism from Sikhs from all over the world who go to visit these shrines.

    My guess is that Greece has some law about the Moslems minority due to its history. Other religious minorities, except, maybe, the people who have revived the ancient Greek religion (/s?), albeit with modifications for it doesn’t seem like they can really believe in those old gods after nearly two millennia of monotheism in Greece, the other religious minorities shouldn’t mind Greece paying for this mosque and not for their places of worship. The particular history of a country and laws stemming from it need to be respected by newcomers. You can’t just come in and take an eraser to a country’s historical context. I certainly wouldn’t care if I was living there, and being just doesn’t always mean treating everyone the same.

    Anyway, have a nice day.

    Yeia sas

  5. crusader
    May 5, 2010    

    Absolutely ridiculous,they should pay for themselves.I’m surprised this news have received so litle atention.It’s a scandal that in the midst of the worst Economic crisis of Greece’s history its taxpayers will have to finance such a huge and expensive project.

    But it seems that Pasok’s ultimate goal is to turn Athens in the official capital of Eurabia,after the citizenship law,that’s just another step in the right direction.

  6. The Verve
    May 5, 2010    

    We Brits don’t mind Mosques being built in “paki areas” in the poorest and most rundown areas of the UK but we don’t want Mosques near our predominantly white and affluent areas.

    Cinzano, the same would apply in Greece. Athenians living in upmarket areas would never allow a mosque to be built anywhere near them. Alternatively another Porsche dealership or an opulent, trendy cafe bar would be readily accepted.

    My guess is that Greece has some law about the Moslems minority due to its history. Other religious minorities, except, maybe, the people who have revived the ancient Greek religion (/s?), albeit with modifications for it doesn’t seem like they can really believe in those old gods after nearly two millennia of monotheism in Greece, the other religious minorities shouldn’t mind Greece paying for this mosque and not for their places of worship.

    Gurmit, believe it or not there are plenty of people who believe in a pantheon of ancient deities be they of Babylonian, Egyptian, Greek, Roman, Nordic or Celtic origin. There’s a resurgence in ancient mystery religions and pagan practices often by well educated & wealthy individuals. One can argue that paganism never truly left us as there are notable signs of it’s existence, entrenched in all mainstream religions.

    Even in Greece, muslims should not be afforded any more rights and preferential treatment to followers of any other religion. A follower of the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn is not in any way less special than a follower of Islam. Either the government pays for everyone’s place of worship which would be bloody expensive, and in Greece’s current financial situation – suicidal. Or it simply protects eveyone’s right to practice their religion of choice without being discriminated against, only followers, whatever their religion of choice may be, will have to pay their own way.

  7. gurmit
    May 6, 2010    

    Hey Verve,

    I stand corrected about the paganism as far as the ancient Greek gods goes. In 1993, I went to Chicago for this conference on world religions and there were plenty of pagans (though I have no idea what pantheons they believed in), witches, people who believed in fairies, aliens, and so on (I found the alien and fairy believers interesting and did go to some speeches by them). I guess I just had some trouble about the ancient Greek gods being believed in still because I was looking at some membership for joining this religion and some other info and there was something about not having to actually believe in the gods. I think this revival of the ancient religion is quite neat even though I myself would never ever be able to believe in all those gods (heck, I even catch myself wondering if there is one God sometimes, the God of Sikhism is just one without any incarnations).

    Anyway, about the mosque, I honestly believe Verve that if there are some laws about special rights for Moslems due to Greek history, then the laws need to be changed before people can really complain about things like this mosque being built. As far as I know, and I could be wrong, some Moslems were allowed to remain in Greece during the population exchange, so the Greeks in Turkey would be treated properly. I also read that most of the Greeks who were in Turkey then left and the Thrace Moslem population hasn’t grown in spite of a higher birth rate than Greeks due to emigration. Once my life settles a little, I’m planning on finding out more about this population exchange thing in Greece and Turkey. I am very curious about why this happened, especially since a third party like Switzerland were involved even if just for the signing of the treaty.

    I also am curious about what Moslems in Greece outside of the leadership levels believe about the timing of this mosque during this financial crisis. I don’t hear any Moslem voice in the article above unless of course the writer is Moslem. If they are like most minorities, I don’t think they would be happy with the timing either, if for nothing else just because they know people wouldn’t be happy at present with the spending.

    I personally believe governments shouldn’t build any people religious places of worship (unless we are talking of prison populations or terminally ill people in hospitals and providing them with a room or something), but at the same time, if there is some law for some special reason for some group, I would focus more on changing the law if I thought it no longer was valid. Do you know, Verve, the Amish don’t have to pay certain taxes in the U.S. ? I think that is great because they honestly don’t take things like old age pensions and other benefits the state provides. Those guys are just so self-sufficient, but one thing I don’t like and you probably wouldn’t either is they don’t listen to any kind of music. They think it effects people and that this is negative.

    I looked at CNN today and heard about the dead people due to the riots in Athens. That is awful and I wish protesters wouldn’t use such violence in spite of being upset by all the economic misery.
    I also got the impression from other news that a lot of people in Greece do seem to realize that cuts must be made in spite of the protests. I hope the unrest settles down and there is no more violence.

    Anyway, have a good day.

    Yeia sas

  8. gurmit
    May 6, 2010    

    Oops, Verve, I didn’t mean I wouldn’t like or you probably wouldn’t like this about the Amish but one reason, among others, I couldn’t be Amish, and that you maybe wouldn’t agree with them for. Bad grammar mistakes too and here I am trying to coach one of my Greek pen pals for some English proficiency test she is taking (but I do a better job for her).

  9. The Verve
    May 6, 2010    

    Hi Gurmit,

    Well all religions, pagan or not have a strong basis in astrology whether they like to admit it or not. The stars, planets & constellations were often personified and made into gods. All our ancestors were avid star gazers, and from the changes they saw in the sky and any effects that would have in their day-to-day existence, they constructed their mythos which would eventually seep into every organized religion. With pagans some do indeed believe in a real existence of multiple gods, while others don’t because they understand the astrological link to those gods.

    I don’t believe most of the muslims in Greece are trying anything backhanded here. Most of them are just decent folks who want an adequate mosque to worship in which is understandable. They’ve wanted a proper mosque for many years now and for various reasons turned down. I am sure they will get their mosque this time but I’m also quite sure they can come up with the money to fund this, just like millions of other muslims worldwide. The government should indeed channel money towards roads (which Greece still seriously lack when compared to so many other western countries)and hospitals in rural areas and many smaller, less touristy islands.

    The Amish are not entirely wrong about music. High & low frequency notes in music do have an effect on a listener’s brain frequencies. Certain kinds of music can have a negative impact on a person over a prolonged period of time, the opposite is also true. Music can also have healing properties and uplift the spirit. It is up to each individual to make a wise decision to what to listen to. Classical music for example is often touted with positive attributes and that it even enhances intelligence in kids if they listen to it instead of pop or rock.

    Those people in the bank were probably killed by anarcho-marxist hooligans, it’s so typical of their style. These thugs have no respect for other people’s lives & property, the government should lock them all up and throw away the key.

  10. gurmit
    May 6, 2010    

    Hi Verve,

    How are you doing? Thanks for the response.

    I agree that those who set fire to the bank should go to jail for a long time. I’m sure most of those protesters were quite peaceful, but it only takes a few to make things go ugly.

    You’re right about the Amish not being entirely wrong about the music. It is also admirable that they try to keep the mind in control and rational basically. I didn’t mean to suggest that the Moslems of Greece were doing anything underhanded. I just found it a little strange that there was nothing from them in that article. Sometimes, the minority isn’t even that adamant about something and it is just made into a bigger issue by other people than it is.

    Excuse my ignorance, but I’m not sure why you mentioned the astrology. Is there a strong connection between astrology and the pagan religions? I know there is a connection in Christianity when the three wise men find out about the birth of Jesus through the stars, but that is the only connection I know of, but then it isn’t as if I am some scholar of Christianity. In Sikh history, one of the Sikh prophets was thrown in jail because the emperor’s astrologer said he was causing illness in the royal family and if he was kept in jail it would go away. He was released, however, because he convinced the emperor, who started visiting him in jail, that he was being manipulated by his astronomer on purpose (the astrologer,who was a Brahmin, recognized that Sikhism was a dangerous movement for Brahminism) . The Sikh prophet also said the heavenly bodies don’t impact human affairs and Sikhs generally tend to think astrology is a bunch of hogwash.

    Anyway, have a good day.

    Yeia sas

  11. The Verve
    May 7, 2010    

    Hey there Gurmit,

    I’m cool thanks. That’s true about minorities, most of them just want to get on with their lives, they’re not purposely looking to be in the limelight.

    Astrology is one of the cores of almost every single religion on earth. Mysticism and folklore are the other two important cores. I’m going to focus squarely on Christianity to make things easier to explain. All the mainstream Christian denominations today deny the astrological & mystery roots of Christianity and only promote the folklore aspect. However there is a sect of Christianity known as Gnosticism that has strong ties to ancient Hellenic philosophy and Judaism, amongst other things astrology and the mysteries of the cosmos. Gnosticism also has a lot in common with many eastern religions as it is more esoteric, whereas the rest of the Christian world is more exoteric.

    There are plenty of links between Chistianity, pagan religions & astrology. Jesus had 12 disciples, the ancient greeks/romans worshipped 12 deities, there are 12 months in a year due to the earth’s orbit around the sun. Christmas in itself has pagan roots, based in the ancient Roman custom of Saturnalia-the honoring of the Saturn deity, which we all know is based on the 2nd largest planet in our solar system. Start telling all this to overzealous Christians, especially reborns and you’re bound to get an earful about being blasphemous and about visiting hell very soon. Oh well, reborns will be reborns.

    I hope that answers your question. Have a good weekend.

  12. gurmit
    May 8, 2010    

    I see what you mean by astrology being a core for religions. However, while Christianity may have symbolism and history based on older traditions which had a strong astrological bent,maybe also because of being adopted by cultures such as the Roman and Greek cultures,I can also see why the majority of mainstream Christian sects reject astrology. I may be wrong, but I feel astrology was used for predicting events or controlling them (not talking of explaining them), and religions that have a strong focus on obeying the will of God, as Christianity seems to generally, don’t have a use for such predictions or control even if any power associated with them is believed as existing (probably not seen as coming from God even if it is thought to exist). In the creation story in the Old Testament, God makes all the heavenly bodies, so they are His creation not something rivaling Him or greater than Him. There is definitely tension between Christianity and astrology even if there is symbolism and other factors based on astrology within Christianity. I imagine it is the same for various other religions too.
    Yeia sas

  13. The Verve
    May 9, 2010    

    Very well put, Gurmit. Personally I’ve never been one for creationism as it’s not grounded in scientific fact. I’ve never believed in the Adam & Eve story either, even as a kid I found it totally absurd. I believe the Christian religion and a great many other religions are metaphorical in nature and should really not be taken literally. There are ofcourse nuggets of truth in every religion, and even some events that check out historically. A follower of any religion should ascertain myth from fact, especially if they are of the bible-thumping variety as it is wrong to push something as the ‘absolute truth’ when a bit of research will determine otherwise.

  14. gurmit
    May 10, 2010    

    Hi Verve,

    It really doesn’t matter what religion it is, there is some stuff believers are required to just believe on “faith.” It doesn’t matter how mythical it might be, they will take it literally. Even with living cult leaders and stuff, people believe all sorts of fantastic stuff that is obviously not true. I certainly agree with you about religions being metaphorical and nuggets of truth existing in them all.

    You know when I was four and five, my father decided he would convert to Christianity. He fancied himself an atheist and would do things like tell my mother she couldn’t pray in his house and stamp her picture of one of the Sikh prophets with his boots, etc. He was just a mean guy with some sort of inferiority complex that made him exercise his meanness however he could. One of his friends from India was married to a “white” lady who was a Christian. Anyway, she was a really nice person and somehow influenced him and her husband’s brother to try Christianity though she couldn’t get her atheist husband to (he was a drinking buddy of my father’s and also someone who kept him in line by dragging him to the bathroom and kicking and punching him in there when he got too mean to my mother, and my dad actually didn’t mind him doing that though he would have minded anyone else).

    Anyway, I got to go to church and Sunday school while my dad just stayed home too busy with drinking away the weekend, but I didn’t know English then so I didn’t really pick up anything and just sat and stood when others did. I have strong memories about the times but have no idea still about what was being said. I think I was the real reason for that lady was always offering to trade one of her three sons for me and officially adopt me, but my mom always told her no. She just wanted to convert a child of my heritage and time even grabbed me from the Sikhtemple and took me to church and really upset my mom who didn’t find out until later. I guess perhaps I might have been a Christian today, except when my dad and his friend’s brother went to the church one day to get baptised as Christians, his buddy married to the Christian lady found out. He went into the church and pushed the priest aside and grabbed my dad and his brother by the collars and dragged them out of the church. Then he was telling my mom how they almost converted and he saved it in the nick of time. My mom was like, “So what if they had, I am sure the Christians would soon have excommunicated them.” The Christian lady left her husband for a bit and the priest called him a devil. Later she came back and said the priest was bad (love I guess can make people very inconsistent sometimes).

    My church visits stopped too then, and some months later my dad converted to Sikhism saying my mom influenced him (though now he hates her again and says his grandfather came to him in a dream). He tried various sects then settled on one that I despise to this day for it was forced down my throat including with the barrel of a gun and a real nasty beating for I dared to call a hypocrite a hypocrite. I think my dad is still an atheist for the most part except when he feels guilty about some of his misdeeds, then he is afraid and needs religion. Many people just use religion because they want something, including things like getting over illnesses or having children in spite of being sterile. Rare I think is a believer who loves God just for the sake of loving God.

    Anyway, I better get going.

    Yeia sas

  15. The Verve
    May 10, 2010    

    Wow, some rough situations there with your dad. That lady that grabbed you from the Sikh temple and wanted to convert you – that is some crazy thinking. It would be a good thing if people would just chill, with this need to convert others to their religion as if it’s some panacea.

    Most religions suffer from a huge fallacy, holding humanity to an unattainable moral code. A level of piousness that is out of touch with what it means to be human. It’s not surprising there is an upsurge of agnostics & atheists, especially in the west. People should be asking the hard questions and challenging their religious institutions to make concessions of outmoded concepts, and finally start becoming pragmatic. If they don’t do this, no single religion will survive a rapidly changing world.

  16. gurmit
    May 11, 2010    

    Hello Verve:

    You know the funniest was that that lady who grabbed me from the Sikhtemple while I was playing outside in the yard and took me to the church, later converted to Sikhism and was just as obnoxious. For instance, people cover their heads in Sikhtemples but noboby cares about babies. She lectured my mother for my brother’s head not being covered in the Sikhtemple when he was like two weeks old. Then one time she caused this huge fight between my parents because she thought my mom’s clothes were see through (she was wearing appropriate clothes underneath so nothing showed) and talked to my dad about it instead of talking to my mom about it. A few weeks later she wore the same thing, and my mom pointed it out to my dad. People were so sick of her and wished she hadn’t converted and started coming to the Sikhtemple (it was her idea, to try to get her husband to believe in some sort of a God, if not Christian then Sikh). My brother gets angry at me over this for he feels I shouldn’t make such judgments and people should be given credit for trying to change, but my observation is that religion doesn’t seem to change people. Maybe they get influenced for a little while, but then are up to the same old tricks of cheating people financially or adultery or whatever it is. I’ve just seen this so many times among Sikhs, and I am sure it is true among the other religions too.

    Anyway have a good day. I’m actually going to bed. I sent a message by Skype to one of my pen-pals in Greece and she is getting up to get ready for work and was like, “you are so lucky you are going to bed instead of having to get up.” It is amazing how technology lets people from all over the world communicate.

    Yawn, yawn au revoir, yeia sas

  17. The Verve
    May 11, 2010    

    Hi Gurmit,

    Well this lady sounds typical of how many overzealous and reactionary folks of various religions behave like. It’s sad really and completely out of bounds within any modern day society. It’s amazing how most claim to believe in a merciful & loving God, yet seldom apply those values in the way they treat others.

    I am glad to hear you’re getting along with your pen-pals. You will gain better insight of everyday life in Greece.

  18. gurmit
    May 11, 2010    

    Hi Verve,

    I thought I would ask you something.

    I’m probably going to be unemployed in BC for a few months. I was thinking of cashing my retirement money through my workplace, which isn’t all that much since I haven’t been teaching all that long and have just been subbing but it will still be several thousand dollars, and starting a small business I really have a bee in my bonnet about, just making picturesque images with things (including rusty old iron I sometimes pick up off of highways and all sorts of other junk and things I have been collecting for a few years now)and getting them photographed by a macro-photographer and trying to sell the images. It comes from inside wanting to make these images. I figure it isn’t as if it is all that much money anyway and if it doesn’t work out, at least the bee in the bonnet will go quiet.. What do you think? That it might be a sensible idea? I ask you because you once mentioned you have a business and you seem sensible about money.

    Yeia sas

  19. The Verve
    May 12, 2010    

    Hi Gurmit,

    I believe people should follow their dreams. What you want to do doesn’t seem like something that will break the bank, it seems very low-risk. Give it a shot but keep a few things in mind. We’re currently in a global recession so folks have less money to spend on impulse. What you’re trying to sell is a product that people don’t necessarily need like food & clothing, your sales will most likely come from impulse buyers who are scarcer these days.

    When the economy is good, or a certain segment of the economy is booming, one tends to find more competition in the economy or that particular segment. You have to make sure you’re adding value or doing something unique to that of your competitors. Check out what your most likely competitors both in Canada/NA region are doing, and also internationally using the internet before you begin. You can also sell your images on the internet but I am sure you must have thought of that already.

    Quite important is also your marketing, since you’re probably not in a position to hire a top marketing team to do this for you, you’ll need to really use your head to connect with your target audience. You target audience seems to be the 18-35 year old hipster crowd, you know mostly well-educated cool crowd that is into art, music & fashion. You will need to fine-tune your product & marketing to attract them to your business.

    I hope that helps, there’s a lot more involved to start off a business and keep it going though. And you will probably need a good accountant & lawyer to keep you in the straight and narrow of Canadian law, which I don’t know much about. I still recommend you continue searching for work and start this thing off as a sideline, once you see it’s becoming lucrative for you than you can decide to go at it full time.

  20. gurmit
    May 17, 2010    

    Thanks, Verve.

    I’m finally in British Columbia. Seems unreal. In six years you can lose touch with a place in spite of having lived in it for decades. The huge flowering rhododendron bushes are spread so lavishly in these cities.

    The flight was terrible, topped off with the suitcase with my clothes getting lost and some worse stuff happening before which culminated in me being the last passenger and delaying the flight. It is awful having an entire plane full of people just waiting for you. (My mother is a baptized Sikh and because we had been packing and doing last minute cleaning up and stuff, she forgot to take off her sword though she put the little one allowed on planes around her neck. I was supposed to remind her but totally forgot because the cat was acting up, sensing changes. I got called to do something with the sword ten minutes before boarding time and finally gave it to a cop I saw. He was so nice I plan to write a nice letter to his superiors.)

    The mountains are nice and we live in on a hill in a fairly wooded area in a brand new house my dad got my brother and his wife. I got the basement suite but can come up too if I want. Today my arms and hands were sore from lugging bags about yesterday but I plan to go exploring tomorrow.

    Have a nice day.


  21. Kamal
    August 30, 2010    

    @ “The Verve’
    you said a follower of the ‘Hermetic order of the Golden Dawn’ is no more ‘special’ than a muslim, and that unless the government funds places of worship for all faiths in existence then it should not fund only one minority religion in the country ie Islam. Do you not think it makes sense to build a mosque for a sizeable minority as opposed to a faith with a few scores of faithful?
    plus, as a christian, do you know that muslims believe there is only one God, the One Jesus peace be upon him is said to have referred to as ‘the father’

  22. gurmit
    September 3, 2010    

    Hi Kamal,

    I read your comments and even though they are to Verve and not me, I felt like responding. Do you honestly think it would really matter to a Christian who doesn’t like Moslems (I don’t mean Verve or any specific individual but just anyone) if Muslims only believe in one God or Jesus is referred to as the father? Think of Christian groups that have persecuted other Christian groups in history and killed them brutally, though they both believed in Jesus. Shared features sometimes mean nothing, especially shared theological ideas. Why do you say “peace be upon Jesus?” Just an expression, because one would think if he so great he should already be peaceful (not that I think or not think that he was all that great, who knows what he was like as he did not write down a single thing, same for Mohammed isn’t it?)?

    Have a nice day.