The only thing necessary for the persistence of evil is for enough good people to do nothing

Laos Against Citizenship

I am intrigued to know which people were living in trees while Greeks were building the Parthenon ?

Via Kathimerini

A bid to grant citizenship to thousands of second-generation immigrants caused more intense debate over the weekend as the right-wing nationalist Popular Orthodox Rally (LAOS) claimed it has the Church of Greece’s support in opposing the draft law.

LAOS held a special congress on Saturday to discuss the proposals drawn up by the government, under which children born in Greece to immigrant parents would be able to apply for citizenship if their father or mother has been living here legally for at least five years and the child has completed at least three years of schooling in the country.

It is estimated that 250,000 youngsters would qualify for citizenship and 150,000 of those would be able to apply in time to vote in local elections later this year.

LAOS is opposed to the bill and has demanded a referendum but leader Giorgos Karatzaferis suggested that he would abandon this request if PASOK holds a vote among its own MPs to see if they are in favor. Nevertheless, the LAOS leader encouraged people to take to the streets to protest against the government’s proposals and to drum up support for a referendum.

“Greece is saying ‘no’ to this bill because it does not want Hellenism to be diluted,” said Karatzaferis. “Greece belongs to its history: We were building the Parthenon when they were still living in trees.”

He went on to claim that the leadership of the Church of Greece supports LAOS’s bid to hold a referendum and will sign such a petition. Karatzaferis also said he will collect signatures from other European countries.

In contrast, the Communist Party (KKE) issued a statement calling on the government to legalize all immigrants and to grant citizenship to all young migrants at 18.

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54 Comments

  1. Cade Foster
    January 26, 2010    

    Illegal immigration is ILLEGAL.

    Accepting illegal immigration contributes to ignorance of the reasons that promote illegal immigration; e.g. foreign wars, governments abusing their citizens, etc.

    Why is it that the UN does not address “issues” at respective countries that are source of illegal immigration.

    The UN was “quick” on issues like Libya, Iraq, Serbia but turns a blind eye on other cases.

    e.g. There are Pakistanis that illegally entered Greece, prefer the future prospects of Greece than their native Pakistan but still Pakistan is a nuclear nation. So Pakistan has the resources to be a nuclear nation but no resources to take care of it’s people’s needs. Their is something wrong with this picture. Where’s the diplomacy-stance of the UN ? Greece is not a nuclear nation.

    With corruption being a standard feature of Greek politics for many years, the native Greeks have too many financial-related problems within their own country and accepting a flood/generation of new immigrants would just add fuel to the fire.

    Greece’s love affair with it’s “lifestyle” needs to be tempered by less reliance on the government and more reliance on themselves. Also, the rampant political corruption needs to be stamped out. This would promote a stronger Greece in an infrastructure sense and would be in a much better position to accept immigrants provided the Greeks wished to do so.

  2. Post Disagreement
    January 26, 2010    

    God bless Laos

    citizenship is a privlege not a right..unless your Greek then its your right by blood.

    and anyway why do we need so many people here…we do not have the economy for it anyway.

  3. Africa is Older than Greece
    January 26, 2010    

    No agree that people was living in trees when Greeks was doing the dew. The oldest bones on da earth were found in Africa so the African immigrants technically were doing the dew well before the Greeks.

  4. January 26, 2010    

    Dear deviousdiva,
    I think it’s probable that Mr. Karatzaferis’ ancestors were living in trees and hunting buffaloes while ancient Greeks were building their altars. That’s more than obvious if you think about the line of thought of LAOS members: Crash, Kill and Destroy anyone we label as “enemy” of our inner-group (e.g. Nation or Ideology).

    It’s sad if you think that millions of people around the world still think this way… I am wondering if anything has changed in the past million years, since -as we can see- animal instincts still prevail.

  5. America Is More Racist Than Greece
    January 26, 2010    

    Africa is Older than Greece,
    What makes you think that he was talking about “Africans”? I see no mention of Africans in the article only “immigrants”. You were very quick to link “living in trees” to “Africans”. You must be racist to immediately assume that Africans dwell in trees…. Your fake foreign accent is also very offensive – Your IP address should be banned because this isn’t the first racist comment you’ve left on this blog…

  6. The Verve
    January 26, 2010    

    You are correct. I find the comments made by ‘Africa is Older than Greece’ highly racist and this is coming from someone who lives in Africa. This person is wittingly or unwittingly insulting both Africans & Greeks with the wording that is used. Perhaps some study of both African & Hellenic history would do this person some good. Furthermore many educated Africans do not speak or write in the manner portrayed by this poster, many are doing their best to better themselves and his/her comment is definitely in poor taste.

  7. We don't expect a babysitter, just an enforced comment policy
    January 27, 2010    

    I find the comments made by ‘Africa is Older than Greece’ highly racist and this is coming from someone who lives in Africa.

    Unfortunately, the owner of this blog allows racists of this kind to spout their hate speech. There doesn’t seem to be a “banning policy” for offensive posters (there isn’t even a “warning policy”, from what i can gather).
    Racists and bigots are free to spout their racist filth on here anonymously to their heart’s content. Especially if it’s against Greeks. There are hundreds of examples of intolerance and hatred towards the Greek culture and southern Europeans in general on this blog.
    And bigots like “Singapore Sling” or “ching, chang, chong” or “Africa is older than Greece” as he has now re-named himself, is just another example of the continuing hate speech and offensive comments being allowed on this blog…

  8. HOMELAND SECURITY
    January 27, 2010    

    How much room in Europe to take back the anti-indian euro-americans?
    http://clandestinenglish.wordpress.com/2010/01/26/on-the-much-discussed-bill-on-citizenship/
    Laos is fucking nazis and here is their practice:
    http://libcom.org/news/antiracist-demo-attacked-fascists-athens-23012010

  9. The Verve
    January 29, 2010    

    I am aware of the bigots you mention. Quite frankly the hate or ignorance they show for Hellenic & Southern European culture is simply a projection of how culturally bankrupt they are. They are truly unfortunate and there isn’t much we can do for them.

    In a way I am glad that the owner of this blog doesn’t ban such comments because it allows these silly little hypocrites to crawl out of the woodwork. At the very least, intelligent readers of this blog will be able to tell who the real racists are in the end.

  10. dovin
    January 30, 2010    

    Apologies if this is OT. We are an indian family (2 + 1 child), planning to visit greece in May. We are planning to hire a car and drive north to Ioannina – Meteora – Olympus and back to athens in a big circle. We love going off the main track and driving through and stopping at small towns.

    Is there any possibility of facing any hostility as we are quite brown skinned ? Are there any do’s and dont’s to avoid potential trouble ?

    I’m not suggesting all greeks are racist, but there are always a few exceptions everywhere, certainly in India too.

    I just want to know if as a tourist there are any common sense precautions I should take.

    Otherwise very excited as this is our first trip to Greece. Always wanted to visit.

  11. Southern Europeans are the most hospitable people you'll ever meet
    January 30, 2010    

    You’ll have absolutely no problems at all in Greece or any country in southern Europe. You’d have more problems if you visited the UK, especially if you walk into any country pub or restaurant. You’ll find that the whole pub will go silent when your brown face enters the room.

    I’m sure you’ll enjoy your vacation in Greece.

  12. January 31, 2010    

    @dovin
    I don’t believe you will encounter ANY problems as a tourist in Greece. Racist incidents are still, thankfully, extremely rare and are mostly confined to neo-nazis attacking immigrants in the inner city.

    You have chosen a fantastic route (not that the rest of Greece isn’t pretty fabulous). Enjoy your holiday and I’d love to hear about your adventures !

  13. dovin
    February 2, 2010    

    Thanks for the replies, I have booked the tickets for an 18 day trip including 4 days for santorini and other islands at the end of the trip.

    I’m quite impressed by the open discussions and efforts by Greek citizens to address the racism issue in your country. In too many places such problems are swept under the carpet, mainstream is too scared or does not care enough to respond and it is allowed to grow out of hand, including I’m sad to say, in india.

  14. Hasan
    February 7, 2010    

    Well, i am a pakistani immigrant, i am an ancestor of Xerxis, Khshayathiya Khshayathiyanam , King of Kings, and i would never accept any western nationality. After all, everyone has to be proud of his ancestors. Nevertheless, i will continue staying in the EU (Greece) and work, and one day i will settle back to my village in Pakistan.

  15. Gurmit
    February 7, 2010    

    Hello Hasan,

    I hope that someday you will be able to go back to your village in Pakistan. Many immigrants do end up going back. My father used to have the same dream but I think he waited a bit too long to go back. When we went to Punjab, India on a visit, I was 15. He said he took us just to decide if we wanted to stay there, and that he would ensure I got a seat there in a medical school. I made no comments of course for he is a crazy character in some ways, but back home in Canada I told him NO WAY. His sister actually took her family along to stay FOR GOOD. Well they ended up coming back after a year (like others I have seen with the same ambitions). She and her hubby came back because the kids refused to go to school or do anything except sit on these stairs for a whole year from morning to night, even when slapped by their grannie (she was mine too, not a very nice old woman at times. She wasn’t too impressed with me either when I broke and slashed things that had been given to them for my mother’s dowry , but she didn’t dare slap me.)

    As for not accepting a western nationality, I guess you have a nation that does look after your interests. I am a Sikh and I don’t see how India has ever looked after our interests except when we did have our own rule for a short period of time. For centuries before that we were persecuted – at one point it was even the law in India for all Sikhs to be killed on sight and one Sikh head on a pole worth a year’s pay when turned into the authorities. Winston Churchill urged Sikhs to form their own nation, basically said if we did our light would shine in the world and if we didn’t, our feet would be cut off -even wanted a military treaty. The dude was right. So was the father of your nation, for he also warned Sikhs of a bad fate. Sikh leaders of the time were far too stupid and the mistakes of people like that have people weep tears of blood for generations.

    I have nothing against the west though I do appreciate that a stateless people who are in a state/s that oppresses that can be seen in the terms of their oppressors the entire world over due to international trade relations. India has often been able to interfere in Sikh affairs within Canada. For instance, the foreign affairs minister at one time actually spoke against a Sikh chair at a university, saying India wouldn’t like it. However, while such problems can sometimes occur, western nations are generally nations that keep their people safe and there is dignity and freedom and equality. In India in some places, Sikhs must register with the authorities if they get baptized. Tens of thousands have been killed in the most gruesome ways in the last couple of decades, one was even boiled to death. And it isn’t just Sikhs, Moslems and Christians also get killed. Christian nuns get raped, paraded naked, churches destroyed, etc. The police turns a blind eye, the judiciary usually fails to punish these people.

    Also why wouldn’t I take on a western nationality even if there was a Sikh state that promoted Sikh dignity in other nations instead of actively working to destroy it as India does. Many people compare Sikhs to Jews and I do too for we have a similar history of centuries of persecution. There is an Israel now but not all Jews choose to live in it. I grew up here in Canada. I love the land. It is the melting snow in spring and the frosty e boughs in winter that make up my veins, not the nature of India. I love the Canadian people too. I am thankful for the laws and my rights and freedom. I would die for Canada if I had to. Canada is one of the most civilized nations in the world.

  16. Indoevro
    February 7, 2010    

    In reply to Dovin;

    I am a British Indian currently living in rural Greece not far from the areas you are intending to visit. A couple of years ago I married my Greek wife whom I met at university in the UK. Having spent our formative years in the UK, we decided to move back to her small town and eventually we tied the knot. I have been here for nearly 4 years now but have been visiting Greece for over 11 years annually. As part of our wedding celebration we invited over 150 Indian family members to our town who stayed for varying periods of time and then travelled in and around Greece afterwards.

    Although occasionally you may feel the gaze of people in small rural towns it is not out of hostility – it is merely out of curiosity. (The same thing happened to a blond girl that was travelling with me in India – she was constantly surrounded by Indian men starring at her out of curiosity). The Greek nation is a very hospitable country for families – it is safe – people generally mean well. Culturally Greeks and Indians are not that dissimilar is family, cultural, and social attitudes and customs. There are no do’s and don’ts – just be. If you are open and confident and leave your preconceptions and judgements behind you will have an amazing road trip around this part of Greece. Enjoy your time and be sure to visit again.

  17. Hasan
    February 7, 2010    

    All immigrants would like to return back to their villages. If the conditions, back there, are not good (peole being attacked or even killed)due to hatered between different groups, the solution is the “european way”: Vast amounts of money come here, to ensure that all media say 24 hours a day that nobody can even touch another man just because he/she speaks onother language. 24 hours, they broadcast the same. Day and night. For years. So today, if a greek policeman touches an immigrant, he will lose his/her job. Automatically. How can we do the same to my country, Pakistan, and make things, there, like they are in Europe or Canada? Can’t we give enough money do do it?

  18. Gurmit
    February 7, 2010    

    Money will never do the trick, Hasan. I took a sociology course on the politics of developing nations at the University of British Columbia. I was quite surprised to discover that enough money leaves these countries to foreign bank accounts in a couple of years to pay off their national debts. The problems run far deeper than money. Corruption and leaders who only care about themselves and don’t tackle the problems that need tackling are a part of the problem. Foreign policies of countries like the US are a big part of it too. Your country for example follows the pattern of the states that swing from dictatorship to democracy and back again. It is in the trade interests of other countries for there to be dictators that cut down on public spending with a heavy hand if people rise up. My professor for this course, whom the whole class liked and respected, was a man named Mohammed from Iran. He said he had only one hope that there ever would be a solution, that the heart of the west would be touched and it would have mercy on these countries.

  19. crusader
    February 8, 2010    

    Hasan i hope more Pakistani immigrants in Greece think the same way as you and will never ask for greek citizenship.Because frankly the idea of havin a large Greek-Pakistani minority in the future makes me feel very uncomfortable.

  20. Hasan
    February 8, 2010    

    I’d feel the same, Crusader, if my country flooded with, for example, russians. Plase tell me the problems you face.
    Also, Crusader, if i accepted your nationality, i’d have to join your army and maybe have to fight moslem Turkey. I’d never do this job.
    You studied sociology on the politics of developing nations at the University, Gurmit. What did they teach you? You must have an answer to my question. You know, money worked pretty well in the country of Greece, as i said before. What about sanctions?

  21. Hasan
    February 8, 2010    

    Dear blogger, on the right of the screen and under “Recently Added Blogs” you place a blog:
    * Atheists
    I beg for your excuse, but such a blog (Atheists) might be an insult to muslim people.
    Can you please delete it from the screen?

  22. sam green
    February 9, 2010    

    Some of the people who comment here are either very stupid or think that the readers are. The former may be true but the latter definately isn’t.
    The fake names and anti-immigrant/muslim sentiments are childish and tiresome.

    If you really have something to say, why don’t you just say it, instead of this silliness.

  23. Joe Black
    February 9, 2010    

    “Sam Green”,
    Why don’t you allow the Indian and Pakistani gentlemen to talk to each other without your interference? Keep your nose out of everybody’s business – if you have something of value to say, then say it and stop filling this blog with your inane nonsense and troublemaking.
    We all know that you are the same American idiot who populates this forum with a thousand different identities to spread your anti-Greek sentiments. You don’t have the courage to keep one identity because you’re frightened in case someone engages you and takes you to town – you are the epitome of cowardice.
    If there is any doubt about this, DD can do an IP check. she’ll find that the Pakistani and the Indian chap are legitimate posters (with different IPs) whereas you are the same troll who has been trolling this blog for years with your dumb hate-filled muck-spreading…

  24. Joe Black
    February 9, 2010    

    Sam Green is the same American idiot who complained to us about the staff of an Athenian Hotel. Can you believe this idiot was offended when the staff asked him to dress more appropriately to his surroundings? He was waltzing around the lobby of a five star Hotel in scruffy SWEATPANTS playing computer games on his laptop on the hotel sofa – he was surrounded by dignitories and people of class and he was slouching around the lobby in jogging pants! This shabby and scruffy idiot had the temerity to suggest that the Greek staff who told him to dress more appropriately, were being nasty to him because he was an American and not because he was dressed like a mental patient. What an idiot.

  25. Hasan
    February 9, 2010    

    My friends, there is a big problem in my country (and its’ neighbouring countries). (And this problem has become your problem, too and we have to find some solution). (In my country) State allows hatered between groups and the police are unwilling to instill order. As a result people live insecure lives, are in danger of being beat or even killed and they leave the country to other, safer, countries. I proposed that money would do the job, because journalists mould minds. I do not believe that “enough money leaves these countries to foreign bank accounts in a couple of years to pay off their national debts”. I am talking about money spent in order to do the job, not about money lent to the government. Please read again what i have said about Greece and tell me your opinion.

  26. Pap
    February 9, 2010    

    Hello Hasan. Stabilization and living-together in your country is a bet we have to win. What must happen is: One by one the countries of your neighbourhood must be new states of the US, or of the EU. I mean new states for real, not colonies. Like Hawaii is a state and not a colony, in the same way. American and European law system must be established and obeyed.

  27. gurmit
    February 10, 2010    

    Mr. Joe Black, if I am the one you were referring to as an Indian gentleman, you are wrong on both counts. I ain’t a gentlemen and I ain’t Indian either. Not that I can blame you for not knowing the gender from my name.

    Hasan,if you are indeed so, I have no answers for your question. Do your own research, explore, talk with people who are in “third world” politcs, get to know the ins and outs of IMF, the goose that lays the giant golden eggs of interest (I commend Greece for deciding not to borrow from this institution and wanting to solve its own financial problems; I also commend the P.M. for wanting to give citizenship to second generation immigrants)etc. The only thing I learned in university that was worth learning was how to learn on my own. Right now I am learning Greek. It is such a beautiful language that I say some words over in my mind just to appreciate the sheer beauty. If ever I win the lottery, I plan to move to Greece – for peace and freedom from the bondage of relatives who think they need to run my life for me. I came to Greece way back on a high school tour. Some books got me interested in it again even though they are set in pseudo-classical times. A lot of folks want to live in the world of those books.

  28. Joe Black
    February 10, 2010    

    Mr. Joe Black, if I am the one you were referring to as an Indian gentleman, you are wrong on both counts. I ain’t a gentlemen and I ain’t Indian either. Not that I can blame you for not knowing the gender from my name.

    Gurmit, I was referring to Indoevro.

    One by one the countries of your neighbourhood must be new states of the US, or of the EU.

    Pap, are you raving mad?

  29. Pap
    February 10, 2010    

    Joe Black, in life we are not looking for ideal solutions but just for the best ones. Maybe the best among not so good solutions. Now, make a supposition. Hawafantastii is a faraway land, and is not a US state. Corrupion and bad governing make people leave this land and flee to the US. The government sends an application to become a US state. Tell me a reason why Hawafantastii would’t be another US state, american law system established and obeyed, solution found, flee stopped, prosperity come to the land.

    Gurmit, can you write in greek characters? Leave an e-mail.

  30. Hasan
    February 10, 2010    

    Pap, i think that your idea is good, but difficult to be applied. Until that time, there is something much more simple that we can do. Give prizes. Is trere a journalist that says all day long that all people are equal and that hatered must be abolished (the way it happens here in Greece for 10 years) ? He gets a prize of 5.000 dollars. Is there a priest or a mayor or a police general who says he same? He gets another prize.

  31. Joe Black
    February 10, 2010    

    Hawafantastii is a faraway land, and is not a US state. Corrupion and bad governing make people leave this land and flee to the US.

    You omit to mention the reason why Hawafantasii would be in such a bad a state. Hawafantasii is probably suffering from a war which America created for it’s own interests (Afghanistan, Iraq). Hawafantasii is probably controlled by a corrupt government who steals from government coffers and neglects the welfare of it’s people, a corrupt government which is supported by the USA which has installed this puppet government via the CIA (Chile, Costa Rica, Ukraine, Georgia, House of Saud). Hawafanasii’s only valuable commodity is probably oil or precious stones which has been monopolised by US corporations and Hawafantasii’s natural assets are plundered by the corrupt government and sold to US corporations for a pittance, leaving nothing for the people (Nigeria, Uganada, Congo). Hawafantasii is in need of infrastrusture development but any monies received from the UN development funds are stolen by the CIA-installed corrupt government and poured into private accounts while the state of Hawafantasii needs to borrow funds at extortionate interest rates from US banks and US government bonds where the interests rates are astronomical, leaving Hawafantasiians in a state of PERMANENT DEBT which they can never repay – this leaves Hawafantsii with no infrastructure, no schools, no medical care, no jobs, no security and and having to leave their country to seek a better life. Why would non-americans want to become Americans when they have a perfectly good country which is being PLUNDERED and RAPED by the US? The Afghans are showing that they DO NOT WANT Americans on their land and are actively fighting to get them off their land. When the Russians fought the Afghans to gain access to their oil routes, you called them “Mujahedeen” (freedom fighters), but now the US is fighting them, they suddenly became “Taliban” – but they’re the SAME FREEDOM FIGHTING PEOPLE!!
    So much for your “apply to become a US state” policy – they don’t want to be an American state – this would be the ultimate shame for them. They hate your greedy, decadent culture, they hate your governments raping their countries and leaving them nothing. The reason they come to America is to seek a better life but if you stopped meddling in their countries affairs and stopped installing your preferred choice of corrupt politicians, the people of Hawafantasii wouldn’t need to come to America or become American.

    If America became totally isolationist and kept it’s hands off other countries affairs, then the world would be a much better place. But American greed is just too much…

    WOW. Just wow:

  32. JoeBlack
    February 10, 2010    

    Hawafantasii is a real place.

    Hundreds of Hawafantasii’s such as Ecuador, Nigeria and Indonesia exist and are being systematically raped by the American Corporations..No wonder Hawafantasiians hate America.

    “Go Home Yankee!”

  33. Gurmit
    February 11, 2010    

    Joe Black, sorry for assuming you were talking about me.

    Pap, I am having problems using Greek characters in e-mails. In fact, I had to use my scanner to send my conversation exchange partner in Greece a Greek letter. I don’t know too much yet because I just started learning in January. I went to a play put on by the Greek Community Centre of Toronto called “Liar Wanted” about ten days ago. I actually understood 9 words (I knew more words but they were not in the play). I hope that for the next Greek play I will understand at least a hundred words. There are about 240,000 people of Greek origins in Canada and about 90,000 in Ontario. I might be moving back to British Columbia in a couple of months. There are only about 20,000 Hellenes there but they have a community centre too. Check out http://www.theatre-nefeli.com for scenes from the play. Speaking of Greek plays, I did take Greek tragedies in university just for fun (my majors were English literature and psychology then I did a B.Ed.). I loved Oedipus Rex and among other things saw Oedipus as someone who changed citizenship because he was dissatisfied with his own (city) state.

  34. gurmit
    February 11, 2010    

    Hello Hasan,

    I took a look at your idea about the media. You seem to have made a connection between police officers losing their jobs if they harm immigrants because of the power of the media.

    Here are my disconnected thoughts about the media (it is 3:20 am here in Ontario, so they may be a little bizarre and quite disconnected).

    The Media:

    Some years ago, I used to think that if I could invent anything in the world, I would invent a device to mess up the news. I believe the media is responsible for more good than ill with its immense power to manipulate millions of people.

    The mass media like many other modern institutions has replaced older ones. One that it has replaced, and this is well known, is the institution of public punishment. I read this story one time, “An Earthquake in Chile” by a guy whose name I think was Henry Von Kleist, some German dude. In the story some person (or was it more than one) were to be punished publicly in some nasty way. A woman whose house overlooked the site where they were to be killed, actually rented out her windows to spectators. I view the glass of our tv screens as being like her windows whenever I see the media trying to shame individuals or groups. It also makes me think of those messengers riding on horseback in ancient times to warn people when it gives news about local storms and dire situations.

    The media is also a part of what this French dude Louis Althuser (spelling I have forgotten I think) terms the ideological state apparatus. The government does not just control people through the “Repressive State apparatus” of the army, the police, jail guards, people in psych wards and schools who manhandle patients and students, etc. It also controls people through ideological means such as music,literature, education, the family, religion, etc. I do not think that any media affiliated with the state can really move ahead of the political context of the state it is affiliated with, though exceptions sometimes arise in any arena.

    It would be really interesting to dissect what the media is and also what national identity is (I often see it being related to blood, land, and collective memories, but does it always have to be?) Anyway, now I will try to go to sleep after chatting with my brother who has to stay up all night to finish some assignment or other. I always feel I am helping him if I stay up too when he has to (he is in law school and trying to help some refugees as a part of a clinical course).

  35. February 20, 2010    

    Greece is a great place for vacations, especially in summer. I really love the beach there

  36. Nikos Arvanitis
    February 21, 2010    

    Katzaferis is a Turkish name, therefore I challenge his Greekness.

  37. Nikos Arvanitis
    February 21, 2010    

    “Greece belongs to its history: We were building the Parthenon when they were still living in trees.”

    This Turk, Katzaferis, forgets that most of us ‘Greeks’ are Albanian Arvanites, Vlachs, Slavs or Orhtodox Turks like him and Karamanlides.

  38. I challenge your Greekness
    February 22, 2010    

    “Nikos Arvanatis”,

    This Turk, Katzaferis, forgets that most of us ‘Greeks’ are Albanian Arvanites, Vlachs, Slavs or Orhtodox Turks like him and Karamanlides.

    You are not Greek at all. You spelled the name Karatzaferis wrong (I don’t think any Greek would have done that). You are the same American troll who assumes false identities to cause trouble on this blog. BUSTED!

  39. Xenos
    February 22, 2010    

    So all Greeks spell names correctly? Hahahahahahahaaaaaaaaaaaaa

  40. dovin
    May 31, 2010    

    Gurmit is not a Sikh, possibly a pakistani doing his bit for the anti-india propaganda. He does not know that Sikhs are all originally hindus. One become a sikh when a hindu family gives up one of their sons as a defender of hinduism against muslim invaders. Later Sikhism became an independent religion, but even today in many parts of india people give (though rarely as time goes on) their eldest son to become a sikh. Thus there are sikhs from different parts of India. I have met Maharashtrian Sikhs where one son is a Sikh and others are hindus.

    Punjab just happens to be the state where Sikhs are so many in number because it was through Punjab that originally muslim invaders attacked india. It is ridiculous to day India is anti-sikh when Indian prime minister is a Sikh and India is protected by an Army run mostly by Sikhs. It was Sikh truck drivers that prevented Kolkata from falling to muslim rioters who wanted it to be part of East Pakistan during partition. Most famous indian food is punjabi food. There is no India without Sikhs and vice versa. A few brain washed disgruntled elements cannot change the fact that Sikhs in India consider themselves as the heart of india and so do other indians.

  41. gurmit
    June 2, 2010    

    Hey Dovin,

    How ya doing?

    I will respond to your points eventually but not all at once for I do not want to write pages and pages. Quite frankly, I don’t care what you think. I just don’t want other people to think I have no answers for your claims.

    I will deal with your assertion that it is ridiculous to say India is anti-Sikh when the Indian Prime Minister is Sikh. I have two points to make about Manmohan Singh the Sikh Prime Minister of India right now.

    1. In the 1990’s sometime, Dan Burton, an American Congressman, raised the issue that 41,000 bounties were given to police officers in India for killing Sikhs, in a two year span I think. Now Dan Burton is not a Sikh. Manmohan Singh is, but what he had to say in the 1990’s at a meeting in Europe was that nothing was going on in India against Sikhs. So many Sikhs were raped, tortured and murdered in India during the 1990’s. Many western nations recognized this and gave a lot of Sikhs refugee status. With his denials of the atrocities, Manmohan is just another cog in the Sikh killing machinery of India. Who cares if he wears a turban and looks like a Sikh? Not I.

    2. Recently Manmohan, maybe two months ago, pulled the Canadian Prime Minister aside in a meeting in the U.S. He did it to tell Mr. Harper that Canadian Sikhs are causing problems in India with Sikh separation and militancy and so on. It really made the news in Canada. Surprisingly, the police in India denied Manmohan’s statements (and CSIS, the Canadian spy agency also has been going on for a while about Sikh separatism by Canadian Sikhs dying out).

    Anyone may ask why did Manmohan tell all these lies? I will tell you why. Just a short little while before his lies, Sikhs protested the coming of an Indian MP in Manmohan’s government to Canada. They protested Kamal Nath’s presence in Canada because he is a war criminal who led a mob that set fire to a Sikh temple and burned Sikhs in 1984 when thousands of Sikhs were set on fire, bludgeoned to death, and raped for three days and some nights in cities all over India, with the help of the army and the police. Nath is not the only Sikh killer in Manmohan’s government, but of course Manmohan has no power to remove these war criminals. Instead they have power enough over him to make him lie about Canadian Sikhs. Of course Nath was embarrassed. Some Candian politicians didn’t want to associate with him and Canadian newspapers mentioned his “murky past.” Of course, he denies involvement, saying he was there but just to stop the mob. Why would he admit it? Of course India saying he is innocent is like the Nazis saying some Nazi didn’t commit atrocities against .

    So, Dovin, it is possible for Prime Ministers to be be of whatever ethnicity but the country still totally being against that ethnicity.

    Have a nice day Dovin.

  42. dovin
    June 2, 2010    

    Gurmit, It does not matter what Americans or Canadians think anymore than it matters to America or Canada what Indians think about situations there. There are many problems in India – distrust between Hindu-Muslim communities, now the Naxal issue and so on. But trying to separate Sikhs from Mainstream India is pretty ridiculous because if Sikhs are a minority, then everyone else in India is also a minority. Of all Indian communities, Sikhs (along with Sindhis, Marwadis etc) are among the top 5 groups that rule India at all levels of govt and military. I – as a Malayali – is less represented in mainstream India than Sikhs – like most other communities.

    True, Khalistan was a big problem for a short while. If Old Soviet Union had a border with Texas, even USA would have had a big problem with some nutcases in Texas who still want a separate country. You forget Bhindranwala who fought for a separate country for Sikhs was initially the hand picked political thug of then Prime Minister Indira Gandhi. When she backed out of their deal, he went in for power on his own, with Pakistani help. He did not give a damn about Sikhs, only about his own power, he killed as many Sikhs as Hindus during his reign of terror.

    You also forget it is a Sikh (Gill) who finally destroyed the Khalistani terrorists and returned his state to peaceful situation. The eradication of Terrorism in Punjab is a classic case of how personal political ambitions can get out of hand and also a lesson that such problems can only be put down by locals who has to be empowered by the Govt to fight the cancer amidst them.

    If you are not a pakistani, you may be one of those who used the opportunity to run away and easily get a visa to a western country that otherwise is given only to skilled immigrants. That’s fine. But before taking me on, try telling Sikhs in India the Indian state is against them. They will tell you a secret, that they _are_ very much the Indian state.

    True there were the horrific riots where Sikhs in delhi were killed by Congress Party workers. But in many parts of the country, including Delhi, ordinary citizens went out of their way to hide and protect their Sikh friends. This is what happens in riots that still happen in India. A whole train full of hindus were burnt to death by muslims in Godhra. So many muslims were killed by hindus in Godhra. Lower caste people were killed by Upper casted in UP, Shiv Sena tries to run out South Indians, Gujaratis and North Indians from Mumbai, Nagas and Manipuris are fighting it out now in Manipur. Gorkhas want a separate country. Tell me – if you take all these people out, who is the Indian State ?

    India is a work in progress, still quite messy. Everyone is a minority. We are still only slowly figuring out that the way to progress is to control the instinct to fight violently and instead agree on civil arbitration to settle disputes. Any group of people, however small, that has fought for its rights within India always gets it in the end. But whenever a local fight has turned into one group against whole of India -as in the case of Khalistan – then all of India stops fighting each other and fights the common enemy. Your people (Khalistanis – not Sikhs) turned against India. Trying to pretend it was a fight between Sikhs and India won’t work – because its the Indian Sikhs who finally kicked the Khalistanis out, not Malayalis or Gujaratis or any other people.

    Anyway, I’m not going to argue anymore. If you just want something to hate, go ahead. But remember this – the only place where you are not a ‘towel head’ is India, however polite people in Canada may outwardly be. You can live all your life in Canada, but as long as you wear a turban and don’t shave your beard, the only place you look good and handsome in a crowd is in India.

    Good Luck.

  43. gurmit
    June 2, 2010    

    Hey Dovin,

    I will reiterate. Manmohan Singh may look like a Sikh but he is a part of India’s anti-Sikh machinery, killing and other machinery. He is a Sikhen-rat only unlike the Judenrat people, Jews who helped the Nazis with their Jewish-murdering machinery, he had no sword at his neck. He just chose to be a Sikhen-rat. Hitler said something one time about no “alien beast” being more effective than someone in one’s own community.

    There were plenty of such Sikh beasts (and still are) who have murdered hundreds of thousands of Sikhs in the last 25 years.
    You mention one, Gill. He is exactly the kind of beast I am speaking about. Oh God, Hitler would have snapped him up in a minute even against Jewish people for such a sadistic animal is rare to find anywhere. He hides his son in a foreign country for he is afraid some Sikh might kill him too.

    A couple of Sikh workers at McDonalds in Belgium saw Gill and recognized him. They left their fries in the oil and chased him (he saw he was recognized for one of them asked if he was Gill) and slapped him and took off his turban before his his body guards got him away. Once India stops protecting him and giving him movie stars of his choice to sleep with, I am sure his hours will be numbered by someone or other he has raped or tortured or whose family members he has destroyed. I am not saying that would be right, he should be prosecuted like the Nazi criminals still found. I just know it would happen though. Lots of human rights people in India, including non-Sikhs, recognize this man’s crimes.

    I don’t think Manmohan is such a beast as Gill for his hands are not personally bloody with torture and murder, he just aids in other ways. Some years ago, a human rights worker, Jaswant Singh Khalra, came to Canada and spoke about a way to document tens of thousands of the disappeared Sikhs who were tortured by the police and then secretly cremated. He found a way through firewood records. I guess that was after the bodies were just dumped in canals and caused an Indian state next to Punjab, Haryana, to officially complain about too many bodies showing up in the irrigation canals from Punjab.

    So what was done to Khalra when he went back? He said he knew he would die when he went back but he did not care. He was tortured and killed and the whole world is aware of this and Amnesty International also took it up. His wife was raped and tortured. She still leads the fight to get this documentation done, but India will not allow it for its hands drip with the blood of hundreds of thousands of murdered Sikhs (and not just Sikhs have been murdered). Human rights workers from India have even gone to South America to get training for this survey to document the disappeared whose deaths at the hands of the police can be proven, but India does not have the guts or integrity or remorse to allow this.

    Canada is a far better country for Sikhs than India. It is far safer and much more just. It also allows Sikhs many more opportunities than India does. For instance, there is no requirement that a Sikh has to be taller than other recruits to join the army. The Canadian armed forces come to recruit Sikhs at Vasaikhi day celebrations, and Sikhs with turbans and beards are allowed to join. India does not even compare to the toilet bowls of Canada let alone Canada itself. It doesn’t compare to America either. So your negative garbage about these countries means nothing.

    Anyway, I will get back to your other points in your first post some other time. I haven’t completely read your second or third posts (or is there just a second), for Dovin I don’t give a rat’s tookie about what you or the hundreds of millions of Indians like you think. I don’t think much of the Indian people in general though for allowing their government to kill and torture hundreds of thousands of minority men, women, children, and babies though.
    Kind of like the German people during WWII.

    Have a nice day.

  44. gurmit
    June 3, 2010    

    Howdy again, Dovin,

    I will now respond to your point about Kolkatta or whatever Sikh truck drivers not allowing Pakistan to get that city. My mother actually has a relative who has a trucking company in that city (he is a younger fellow though and born decades after the partition of India and Pakistan and moved to this city as an adult; in 1984 he and his family had to hide from the Hindu mobs out to kill any Sikhs they could find. Unlike many others, he had a nice and very brave Hindu friend who hid him and his wife and two children in his house for several days).

    I think none of India would have gone to Pakistan actually if it had not been for the fact that Brahmins like your so called Mahatama Gandhi and Jwaharlal Nehru, the first Prime Minister of post-colonial India, hadn’t wanted a Pakistan because of their hatred of Moslems and wanting to get a large chunk of their population separated from India. If there had been no Pakistan, there would have been many more Moslems in India, almost as many as Hindus. That would be a huge threat to the mainly Brahmin governments of India.

    I’m sure Sikh truck drivers in Kolkatta during partition probably acted like atrocious animals and killed whatever Moslems they saw. They were not heroes but war criminals. Many Sikhs and Moslems killed each other during partition. The Punjab after all is the area that mainly was split. I know of horrors my grandparents witnessed and also know families who fled from the Pakistan side. One guy’s brother was left behind as a small child who got lost. A Moslem couple adopted him and the guy recently had a reunion. A little Moslem girl who hid while all her other family members were slaughtered was adopted by my mom’s neighours and joined her family in Pakistan in her late teens. Everyone was crying when she left and she comes back to visit sometimes. Out of all the horrors at least some good stories can be found. So many people were killed during the partition due to organized state violence.

    India often tries to fan the fire to increase hatred for Moslems among Sikhs from partition. However, many of the wounds have healed. The Pakistani government started allowing Sikhs to visit their historical Sikhtemples left behind (and cared for not burned down as has often happens in India). What Sikhs have experienced in a post-colonial India has sobered them up. At least what happened during partition wasn’t a one sided attack.

    Have a nice day, Dovin.

  45. gurmit
    June 3, 2010    

    Hey Dovin,

    Last post today, I promise.

    I want to respond to a point you made about all Sikhs originally having been Hindus. That isn’t true, but even if it was, so what? At one time the ancestors of all humans were monkeys swinging from trees? So? Are we still monkeys? No, of course not.

    I know Sikhs who were originally Christians and one lady who was Jewish before she converted. I have gone to the homes of Sikh converts from western heritages and worshiped with them. There is no difference between us. Once you are a Sikh, you are a Sikh and a part of all Sikhs.

    Even on the subcontinent, many who converted to Sikhism were Moslems and from other faiths than Hinduism too. Guru Nanak was the first teacher of Sikhs. His closest disciple, Mardana, was a Moslem. Nanak also traveled to the Arab world and lived there for years and had followers there too. A monument in Istanbul, Turkey, mentions Nanak by name and says he came from India and is a man of God and the Lord of the times. A Moslem ruler named Salim was impressed by him and got the monument put up. This was found not too long ago and Sikhs want to go build a Sikhtemple in Turkey eventually and are working on a research project with the help of the Turkish ambassador in Canada (a Sikh Canadian,Dr. Chahal, found the monument by accident when he went there for a conference on fuels or something).

    Nanak was born a Hindu, but he could hardly be called a Hindu. Even at the age of nine he became known as a heretic. He refused to put on the sacred Hindu thread to mark upper caste boys during a public ceremony attended by his relatives. He not only told the Brahmin priest that this thread was garbage but also said the Brahmins needed strings tied to various of their body parts with which they did evil so they would stop doing using them badly (his verses are in the Sikh Holy book and more graphic than what I have written). The priest went home saying he could do nothing for him ,and his family was mortified with all the relatives watching. You will even find that Guru Nanak said “Hindu ana, Turku Kana…” The Hindu is blind in both eyes, the Turk (Moslem) in one…” You can hardly claim the man was a Hindu.

    The fifth Sikh Guru, Guru Arjun Dev, was put to death in 1606 at the command of the Moghul Emperor Jehangir. Both Hindu and Moslem priests tortured Guru Arjun Dev before he died because he had compiled the Sikh Holy Book and they wanted verses offensive to them taken out. Jehangir also wrote in his dairy that Arjun Dev’s preaching was getting Moslems to convert too and he was annoyed by that (though he got him killed for other reasons too, like giving aid to his son when he was fleeing him and went to the Golden Temple to ask to be hidden for a bit and for some money to get out of the country. Arjun Dev provided the money and refuge and refused to pay a fine for it).

    Anyway, it was not just Hindus who converted to Sikhism right from the beginning. Also, Sikhism didn’t become militant until after Guru Arjun Dev was killed. It became an independent religion first with its own holy book though you claim it became an independent religion later and first Sikhs were Sikhs because they defended Hindus from Moslem invaders. No Sikh picked up a sword until after 1606. That is over 120 years from the time Nanak started preaching and the Sikh Guru-ship was passed to five successive Gurus. I will respond some other time to this thing about Sikhs defending Hindus from Moslem invaders. Let me just say, Sikhs were not so dumb that they had no causes of their own to fight for but only defended Hindus by rescuing their daughters being marched to the slave markets of the middle east or taken by local Moslem overlords for their sexual pleasure or because they fell in love with them.

    Anyway, have a nice day, Dovin.

  46. gurmit
    June 3, 2010    

    Dovin,

    Sorry, but I just had to tell you this.

    Kamal Nath, the M.P. from India who came and was protested against by Sikhs for his involvement in murdering Sikhs, has quite recently (I think just last month) been charged by an American court in New York for his role in murdering Sikhs in India. He was handed summons. Good!!! If India does nothing and that Sikh Manmohan can do nothing in spite of being the Prime Minister of India, at least America took the initiative in charging this animal, this Nazi, this war criminal.

    Have a good day.

  47. gurmit
    June 3, 2010    

    Hey Dovin,

    How are you doing?

    I wanted to respond to another thing you said in your first post about Hindu families making one son a Sikh and knowing families where one son is a Sikh and the others Hindus. You make it sound like there is no difference between Hindus and Sikhs and Hindus really Sikhs and so make one of their sons into Sikhs. That isn’t true at all. Also, I doubt you know very many families where one son is a Sikh and the other sons Hindus. There are some. This is what one historian, W.H. McLeod says about this tradition:

    “Appreciative of the strength of opposition encountered during the Anglo-Sikh wars & as a result of the assistance which they received from the Sikh princes during the Mutiny, Sikhs were easily accommodated within the British theory of the martial races of India & Sikh enlistment increased steeply. For the British, martial Sikhs meant Khalsa Sikhs, and all who were inducted into the Indian Army as Sikhs were required to maintain the external insignia of the Khalsa”. The British paid their soldiers very well, allotted them agricultural land & pension. Other castes like Khatris, Aroras & Ahulwalias did not want to loose out economically so they made the first son a Sikh meaning they had to grow hair etc.

    So the tradition didn’t start because there is no difference and Hindus totally love Sikhs. It started due to gaining money and land. The British wanted Sikhs to be baptized Sikhs to get into the British-India army and preferred Sikhs as soldiers for various reasons. A Hindu family getting a son to grow hair and to look like a Sikh to get the family land and money, doesn’t mean much really from a religious point of view. If someone converts because they like a religion, that is very different.

    Have a nice day.

  48. dovin
    June 3, 2010    

    Gurmit,

    In your posts, you want to kill Indian Sikhs who fought against muslim terrorists and Pakistanis – yet you claim to be a Sikh.

    75% of _real_ Sikhs in the world live in a Sikh majority state in India called Punjab – ruled by a coalition of Sikh political parties. I’m sure you want to kill all those Sikhs too because they did not migrate to Canada.

    Its quite clear where your sympathies lie. You can’t hide your hatred for the Indian Sikhs who have been in the frontline in keeping Pakistani/Khalistani terrorism away from India. When you spew your hatred for India, a lot of it seems to be reserved for Indian Sikhs. I don’t need to support them, Indian sikhs are quite capable of kicking your ass – Khalistani or Pakistani – anytime you create trouble in India.

    Let me give you a tip. Guru Granth Sahib is in India and so is the homeland of Sikhism. Indian Sikhs are the true Sikhs. They own a big piece of India, more so than most other communities in India. Tying a turban and spouting words like ‘Khalsa’ doesn’t make you a true Sikh. So try changing your name to James, may be use a skin bleach – and tell Canadians you are the real canuck and they are all imposters. May be you’ll have better luck than with Indian Sikhs, since they are so great and friendly.

    You can write what you want, but you are now totally exposed as a Pakistani/Khalistani terrorist sympathizer who hates all Indians including Indian Sikhs. Greeks have enough problems these days without being exposed to lies and terrorist propaganda from other parts of the world. So in respect for them I’m signing off from this conversation.

  49. gurmit
    June 4, 2010    

    I never said anything about killing anyone and don’t even believe in capital punishment for the worst criminals. You are the hater. I made some posts here in Jan. expressing my beliefs without referring to Hindus or Moslems . You are the one who came along and started spouting your hatred and mentioning groups and Hindus and Moslems and this and that and applauding war criminals like the Sikh drivers who killed Moslems (they were truck drivers not soldiers) and killer and rapist K.P.S. Gill whose crimes are known about outside of India as well. Yes, Greeks don’t need to hear stuff like this, I agree. But, at the same time I don’t believe in people like you trying to silence people and throw your lies about either. The crimes of India against Sikhs, Christians, and Moslems cannot be hidden no matter how much it tries. I never said I was a true Sikh. You are the one who went on about me not being a Sikh and speculating this and that about me.

    India may have been the birthplace of Sikhism but it will not continue to be its home. The only reason Sikhism will survive is because it left Indian soil just as the only reason Bhuddism survives is because it went to lands other than India. You surely must know that the Bhuddists were wiped out physically after attempts at ethnocide failed to kill them during the golden age of Hinduism. The Bhuddist survivors who fled to the mountains to escape are the ones who let the Moslem invaders into India by guiding them through mountain passes. Then for a thousand years Moslems ruled India. Nations like India that are hell bent on wiping out anyone different always suffer in the end. Yeah I will sign off because Greeks have things of their own to talk of, but don’t talk to me again or you will hear more. I am not in India that you can just report me and get me raped, tortured, and killed for my views.

  50. gurmit
    June 4, 2010    

    P.S.

    Dovin, I found out recently that Jagdish Tytler, another politician and killer of Sikhs in Manmohan Singh’s government until recently,was denied entry to the U.K. due to his war crimes. Yet another, Sujjan Kumar also was in Manmohan’s government. It is funny. Bad things happen sometimes in all nations, but rare is the nation that makes war criminals like Tytler, Kumar, Nath, H.K. Bhagat, and Shastri into MP’s and senior ministers of state let alone throw them in jail as modern India has. And we are talking of them leading mobs that gang raped women in front of their kids and then set the kids on fire,looted homes, and burned and bludgeoned people to death. If any Greek reads this, may he or she be thankful that their country is civilized and not a demoNcracy like India. Nath, by the was was charged for crimes against humanity by the American court and told there would be a default judgement against him if didn’t respond. It was just on April 6 of this year that he got the summons while visiting the U.S. and he didn’t respond in the 21 days given him. Maybe there is time for him though to explain why he didn’t respond. Good luck in your demoNcracy.

  51. gurmit
    June 4, 2010    

    P.S. #2

    Narendera Modi, another elected demon of India (although he is the head of a state government unlike the others I mentioned who are or have been in the the Congress party, the current ruling party of India) who still serves, was not allowed to set foot in America for his war crimes against Moslems just as Tytler, who just got out of the government last year, was not allowed in the U.K. for his war crimes against Sikhs. Interesting that not a one of these people in India have been punished, in spite of protests against some for 25 years now. That is why Sikhs have started to involve other nations against them for there is no hope of India ever being just.

    You objected to me using the word Khalsa even though it was McLeod, a historian, who used it to explain the practice of some Hindu families forcing one other sons to convert to get land and money for the family from the British who preferred to have Sikhs in the army and said they had to be baptized or Khalsa Sikhs to be their soldiers. Not that there is anything wrong with the word though you don’t want to hear people using it for some strange reason.

  52. gurmit
    June 4, 2010    

    P.S. #2

    Narendera Modi, another elected demon of India (although he is the head of a state government unlike the others I mentioned who are or have been in the the Congress party, the current ruling party of India) who still serves, was not allowed to set foot in America for his war crimes against Moslems just as Tytler, who just got out of the government last year, was not allowed in the U.K. for his war crimes against Sikhs. Interesting that not a one of these people in India have been punished, in spite of protests against some for 25 years now. That is why Sikhs have started to involve other nations against them for there is no hope of India ever being just.

    You objected to me using the word Khalsa even though it was McLeod, a historian, who used it to explain the practice of some Hindu families forcing one other sons to convert to get land and money for the family from the British who preferred to have Sikhs in the army and said they had to be baptized or Khalsa Sikhs to be their soldiers. Not that there is anything wrong with the word though you don’t want to hear people using it for some strange reason.

  53. gurmit
    June 5, 2010    

    My dear darling Dovin,

    I just had to make you aware of something since you didn’t mention in when you were listing problems with India, the violence against Christians. Here are a couple of links about 250 churches being burned in just a few months and over 50,000 Christians displaces and some forced to hide in forests. That is kind of old, 2008. One of links is a 2010 one though, for it isn’t as if this garbage has stopped. One is really old , 2000. The problem began even earlier actually and hasn’t ended. 21 U.S. lawmakers have written India this year to bring to justice those who kill Christians for often nothing happens to them. Some of the Christians took their protests to Manmohan Singh. I think I will just have to contact some Christian leaders in India and tell them not to have too much hope from him as he actually works with people who have done the same to Sikhs in his government, even made Nath into a minister. When Sikhs protest in Canada protest against Indian atrocities they also have signs about their Chistian brothers and sisters. Here are the links

    http://www.christianpost.com/article/20100501/warc-condemns-growing-anti-christian-violence-in-india/index.html.

    http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/10/02/world/main4493283.shtml

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/759221.stm

  54. gurmit
    June 5, 2010    

    Yoo hoo Dovin,

    How are you doing? Hey, I figured the Greek and other people have minds of their own and don’t need to read stuff I write and this is an old thread while there are new ones for people to engage in. Don’t worry though, I cross my heart and hope to die if I don’t soon get out of your hair. I talk too much sometimes and just can’t stop.

    The following is from your first post, which really offended me:

    He does not know that Sikhs are all originally hindus. One become a sikh when a hindu family gives up one of their sons as a defender of hinduism against muslim invaders. Later Sikhism became an independent religion…Punjab just happens to be the state where Sikhs are so many in number because it was through Punjab that originally muslim invaders attacked india.

    You really offended me because you because are saying here that Sikhs are Hindus and are not respectful at all of the separate identity of the Sikh people. That is something Sikhs have had an issue with India since the British left. We are not Hindus and it is deeply offensive to us to be told we are by anyone. In fact, in the town I grew up in, being called a Hindu by a white kid ensured they would get a good beating by the Sikh kid.

    Of course it has been a strategy of India to persuade Sikhs that they are Hindus. The so called Mahatama Gandhi, the father of India, threatened to go on a hunger strike to death if Dr. Ambedkar, the leader of the Dalits or untouchables converted to Sikhism along with 60 million of his followers as he was contemplating to do so in a bid to escape the caste system. He said it would be dangerous unless Sikhs could be persuaded that they were Hindus. Indeed, he even told us to give up one of our prophets (I guess it would have been very hard to covert him to a Hindu god since he wrote he was a man and we would go to hell if we ever thought of him as God and he also gave us the Khalsa identity)and our alphabet and so on. I think it is a Brahmin strategy to Hinduize other religions by changing thier prophet or prophets into Hindu gods, altering their scriptures, and then making them into low castes so they can keep on being the power holders. Max Arthur Macauliffe, a Scottish writer on Sikhism, saw this trend and compared Hinduism to a boa constrictor that has swallowed other faiths that arose in India and hoped Sikhs would escape it.

    I thank you for your offensive and ethnocidal remarks because it made me aware that it isn’t just an abstract thing but really at work out there in India and when people don’t believe it that is when the killings start. Then more people will be scared and ashamed and start believing anything. More ethnocidal propaganda for years followed by killings. The cycle will keep up. In a couple of hundred years at the most, presto, no more Sikhs except under the umbrella of Hinduism in the land of India. I honestly believe this might happen for it has happened to other folks. However it will not happen with diaspora Sikhs.

    Thanks to you, a small fire has been lit in my heart. One goal the Sikh diaspora, and there are millions of Sikhs outside of India, must cherish is not ever giving in to this taking away of our separate identity from Hindus. Even if the Sikhs in India fall to it, the Sikhs outside must not and must make it known as a historical record of why the Indian Sikhs fall to if they do.

    I haven’t been to a Sikh protest or anything in years, over 10 years probably. Today I will be going. There is a candle light vigil, an annual affair, in downtown Vancouver in memory of the Indian army’s attacks on the Golden Temple and 37 other historical Sikhtemples on one of the holiest days of Sikhism to maximize the number of killings of the Sikh people. A young fourth generation Canadian Sikh lawyer organized it this year. The young Sikh people in Canada really care about India’s violation of the human rights of Sikhs, and other minorities in India.

    Thanks, my friend, you have made me committed to being an active member of the Sikh community again after over a ten year lapse.

    By the way, here are some more links you might be interested in
    concerning the killing of Christians of India (and funny how many states they happen in not just Orissa anymore):

    http://www.compassdirect.org/english/country/india/9979/

    This is very recent news about the killers of Christians just acquitted in most cases in trials stemming from the 2008 Orrisa violence.

    http://www.wnd.com/?pageId=81564
    This talks about the rewards given to killers of Christians in India, especially for Christian priests. Hey, are you aware a cash bounty was given to an Indian cop by the Indian government for killing a three year old Sikh kid? What a terrorist he must have been, heh? A nonSikh says this on the internet. Just watch “India commits suicide” on you tube. But I warn you, the picture of the body of a Sikh who was boiled to death by the cops is there too.

    Here is another link about the Christians. This one actually interviews a priest who nearly died after being set on fire by a Hindu mob and whose would be murderer was also allowed to go free in the spring of this year:

    http://www.speroforum.com/a/31373/India—New-acquittals-for-people-who-attacked-Christians-in-Orissa

    There are many others. You can do the research yourself I am sure. It does get Christians even in Canada get very mad and even feel like stepping on the Indian flag along with some Sikhs who do it every Indian republic day (I think that is just dumb though, stepping on flags).

    Anyway, have a nice day.

    Gurmit

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