The only thing necessary for the persistence of evil is for enough good people to do nothing

Citizenship for Children

Via Reuters

Greece, long criticised for its handling of immigrants, will grant citizenship to some 250,000 migrant children but will also send thousands of detained illegal immigrants away, a senior official told Reuters.

Human rights groups for years have denounced Greece’s handling of migrants and appalling conditions in migrant detention centres in a country struggling to cope with swelling numbers of people seeking refuge in Europe.

“It’s irrational that a child born and educated here cannot receive Greek nationality,” Deputy Citizen Protection Minister Spyros Vougias said in an interview on Wednesday.

“There will be a regulation that will rectify this inequality between immigrants’ and Greeks’ children,” he said.

“It’s about 250,000 children.”

Whether the parents were legal or illegal migrants would not be an issue provided the children were born in Greece or had arrived at an early age and had received basic education in Greek schools, Vougias said.

Asked if parents of these children also would be granted citizenship, Vougias said the government was still studying the matter. He did not say when the new legislation would be passed.

The Socialists, who won a snap election on Oct.4, have set immigration at the top of their agenda, but with most Greeks believing their crisis-hit country cannot take in more migrants, striking the right balance will be a tough challenge.

Vougias said Greece would send thousands of illegal migrants away to their home country, unless they were accused of crimes. They would be offered money and given a month to leave.

“DANTE’S HELL”

The new government announced earlier this week the temporary closure of a migrant centre on Lesbos island, which Vougias had described as “Dante’s hell” during a visit in October.

“We started from what was a blot in our reputation,” Vougias said of the centre in which hundreds shared very few toilets and often slept on mattresses on the floor.

Vougias said a new centre in Lesbos would be ready to operate by autumn next year, while the rest of Greece’s migrant centres gradually would be upgraded.

About 14,000 illegal migrants crossed the Aegean Sea in the first half of 2009, nearly twice as much as in 2008, often risking their lives in an effort to reach EU-member Greece.

The increase is partly due to the effective policies of other Mediterranean countries, such as Italy and Spain, that have cut down on sea arrival numbers, with migrants taking alternative routes even if the journey is longer, Vougias said.

Although Greece is one of Europe’s main entry points for illegal immigrants, it also is the country with the lowest approval rate of asylum claims, accepting 379 people in 2008 out of nearly 20,000 requests.

Vougias said this was mainly due to inexperienced police staff at Greek borders, who could not confirm whether asylum requests were justified. He said they would be replaced by specialists.

Via Kathimerini

Equal rights for migrant children
EU pledges to fund creation of system for processing asylum claims of undocumented immigrants

Prime Minister George Papandreou yesterday told an international forum on migration in Athens that all children born to migrants from now on will automatically acquire Greek citizenship as European Commission Vice President Jacques Barrot told the same gathering that Brussels was willing to fund the creation and operation of an efficient system for processing the asylum claims of thousands of migrants arriving in Greece.

“Growth and migration are inextricably linked,” Papandreou told the forum, stressing the importance of the contribution made to the Greek economy by immigrants.

Deputy Citizens’ Protection Minister Spyros Vougias provided further details yesterday in an interview with Reuters, saying authorities would grant citizenship to some 250,000 migrant children born in Greece. “It’s irrational that a child born and educated here cannot receive Greek nationality,” Vougias said. “There will be a regulation that will rectify this inequality between the children of Greeks and immigrants,” he said, adding that the measure would apply to “about 250,000 children.” It was unclear if the parents of these children would also acquire citizenship.

Meanwhile the EC’s Jacques Barrot told authorities that Brussels was aware of the particular burden being shouldered by Greece as an external EU border state and promised to pay for the creation of “a real system for examining asylum claims.” The European Commission recently sent Greece a “reasoned opinion” – the last step before legal action – over its inadequate processing of asylum claims. Barrot is today due in Ankara for talks aimed at convincing Turkish authorities to sign a deal with Frontex, the EU’s border-monitoring agency, and to agree to honor a bilateral migrant repatriation pact with Athens.

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48 Comments

  1. Xenos
    November 5, 2009    

    It’s actually about 150,000 children and another 50,000 adults (the latter probably not so interested in taking citizenship). Of course, this is naked self-interest of Pasok in looking for new voters, but I suppose we should just be grateful for small mercies…

  2. Travlos Konstantinos
    November 5, 2009    

    Because the racialists promote Japan as an example of a successful racialist state in a liberal world here are some interesting articles on how some of those Japanese nationalist policies may be leading their economy, and the culture it supported, to death.

    I am going to say this, within the next 10 years Japan is going to open up immigration to revitilise it’s aging economy (probably fed by masses of North Koreans fleeing a collapsing DPRK).

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/comment/ambroseevans_pritchard/6480289/It-is-Japan-we-should-be-worrying-about-not-America.html

    http://wealth-ed.com/2009/11/the-demise-of-japan-as-economic-power/

    http://www.economist.com/research/articlesBySubject/displaystory.cfm?subjectid=348969&story_id=14216784

  3. Post Disagrement
    November 6, 2009    

    Prime Minister George Papandreou yesterday told an international forum on migration in Athens that all children born to migrants from now on will automatically acquire Greek citizenship

    ……..

    Perfect.. now anyone who can pass a child through their body will sneak into Greece and get automatic citizenship in an EU state. This will just replicate the “anchor baby” phenomena of the US with its illegal Mexicans.

    Keep pushing Yiorgo..keep pushing the moderates to the far right..

    This will serve as a magnet not a deterrence to furthr migration.

    And is just a disaster waiting to happen on already disastrous situation.

    and of course if a child is born in Greece that will then by extension get citizenship for its parents and existing siblings.

    Congratulations. Greek Haters.. Greeks will now become a minority in Greece.

    Go celebrate.

  4. Post Disagrement
    November 6, 2009    

    Whether the parents were legal or illegal migrants would not be an issue provided the children were born in Greece or had arrived at an early age and had received basic education in Greek schools, Vougias said.
    …..

    and if they have not been born…they just had to arrive at an early age.

    So now one can even use their existing children and not have to bother with getting pregnant first.

    this is a horrendous policy.

    I am not saying citizenship should be automatically denied..but I think just being born is not a reasonable criteria at all.

    Recession (going to depression) + mass migration resentment inpopulace + liberal lunacy => Far right regimes (think decadent weimar became hitlers germany) …I give it 4 years.

    People will embrace a law and order dictator who will make the economy work for them, rather than these clowns.

  5. Post Disagrement
    November 6, 2009    

    I call them clowns because their answer to an unregulated situation is to just make it automatically legal.

    Thats not governance thats political expediency.

    BTW I do not want a dictator for Greece but the more crazy policies the government produces that angers the public and the more chaos they cause will just generate more swing back the other way.

    Why not, make the criteria born in Greece to legal immigrants or legal residents that might make some sense…….Not just break in, crack an egg and viola now your kid (and by extension you) get citizenship.

    Thats not right thats too simple a criteria and will just create a chaotic situation when knowledge of it travels every basket case country will be attracted to it because it offers such an easy path to EU citizenship.

    No language requirement, no residency etc..

    See when you applaud policies like this this tells me that the far right side does have a right to be paranoid.

    PASOK basically sold out something that is a privelege as a right based on a base biological function.

    Xenos you and I agree on this…that PASOK is doing this for votes to secure the interest of the future of PASOK…not the best interest of Greeks and Greece.

    So I thank you for that.

  6. Travlos Konstantinos
    November 6, 2009    

    “People will embrace a law and order dictator who will make the economy work for them, rather than these clowns.” And if the past is an indicator they will face making to work at all for more then 5 years and without a couple of major wars (Feudal societies like communism and national-socialism require conquest to keep there economies functioning).

    A policy of automatic citizenship is not right. But you make a big assumption that giving citizenship to children born in Greece, or which grew up in Greece will lead to first generation citizenship. It doesn’t necessarily follow as long as the constitution is amended to prohibit first generation citizenship. You also make an assumption that these policies will not be, as usual, adjourned by the next right or far right Greek government. Taking away citizenship from citizens is an art perfected by both Greece and Turkey.

    Anyway in the end citizenship for children born in Greece, as long as they spend at least 12 continuous years in Greek education, and 20 years in Greece should be automatic. I would just add a constitutional clause prohibiting giving citizenship to first generation immigrants (except if they were 10 years and younger when they came to the country, and fulfill the 12 years of education and 20 years of residence law). Of course deporting parents as long as the children are under 18 should be prohibited except if they commit a criminal law crime that would give them a prison term that would mean that the child would be 18 by the time the term is served.

    Still you make a very interesting analogy
    “that is a privilege as a right based on a base biological function.”

    last time I remember as long as you can claim you are Greek, are orthodox in religion, and Russia or the Turkish Republic or the Ottoman Empire saw you as “Greek” you are Greek even if your family lineage is murky or unknown before the 20th century. And your children born by a base biological function are automatically citizens regardless of your ancestors actions is service of Greece.

    Here is what I see: You can be born in Greece, grow up in Greece, go to school in Greece, only speak Greek and you are not Greek as long as a) Your parents where not considered Greek by the Greek State in 1830 b) they were not considered Greek by the Russian and Ottoman Empires, the Soviet Union, or the Soviet Union, Russian Federation, Republic of Turkey c) they did not make a claim that an immediate ancestor was a citizen of Greece, or fell in the (b) category.

    Taking into consideration that in many of these countries who was Greek or not was chosen on i) religious grounds ii) by government authority, in many ways (not always) the difference between two children that are born in Greece, raised in Greece, speak Greek is that the parents or grand-parents of one were at some point classified as Greek by a state functionary of some empire or were orthodox. If any of the above happened you are a Greek citizen! If not you never, ever will be a Greek citizen. Of course for Cyd the big difference is that you may not be of the right color.

    It is interesting that both Greek and Turkish nationalist believe that changing you religion to Orthodox Christianity or Islam, magically makes any problems of ancestry go away.

    Why haven’t right wing natavist parties asked for looking up the ancestries of people to see whether they are really descendant from Greeks and grant citizenship on that criterion? Why only go half-way in natavism? How do they know that all 10000000 Greeks are actually of true Greek descend? It is assumed and on that basis others are considered ineligible for citizenship. But if people can’t be Greeks if they are not descended from Greeks, then why should people remain citizens if they are not really Greeks and it was either falsly claimed or assumed?

    I wouldn’t support this, but if you are making a natavist argument for citizenship how can you only make a half one ?The Nazis were bastards but they were consistent bastards.

  7. babsi
    November 6, 2009    

    You, poor and naive NWO fanatics, overlook the fact that these so called “citizens” will be able to travel and settle all over Europe.
    Anyhow, why the Greek government doesn’t hold a referendum to see what the Greek people think and wish about those uninvited visitors? Is the government afraid of something? I hope not; as sooner or later, with or without a referendum, discontent will raise its ugly head and begin to wreck havoc.

  8. Xenos
    November 6, 2009    

    Automatic citizenship for children born on the territory and educated there for at least 7 years or so is a normal policy across Europe. That anyone should object to it in Greece, is an indication of the racism and backward mentality prevalent in Greece. Do you malakes really think that the palinostoundes are so devoted to Greece? Or that Greeks born in Greece are interested in the future of Greece? From what I see, they are busy fucking Greece and saving their money in Zurich.

    So, let’s cut the crap shall we? It’s racism, pure and simple.

  9. babsi
    November 6, 2009    

    Can you read English? Or your ideas flee and seem ungraspable? Do you lose track of your little thought train (choo! choo!). Poor creature…

  10. Zorkon Planet
    November 6, 2009    

    Babsi, you obviously don’t know much about Greece. Greece is one of the few (semi-civilized) countries that doesn’t allow it’s citizens to take part in referendum. I’ve often speculated it’s because of the simple-mindedness of some of the voters, but certainly important issues are settled by politicians and not referendums.

    Now, to be fair, regarding referendums; voters in Republic of California approved a ballot prop 187 which would have made English the official language in California, and it passed overwhelmingly. But, in the end, it was overruled because it was racist.

    So, please don’t bring up referendums. Can you imagine a world where Greeks controlled their country through referendums:

    I’m envisioning the following referendums passing overwhelmingly in Greece:

    – Smoking allowed everywhere (even in front of children and hospitals)
    – OK to cheat foreigners (and everyone for that matter)
    – Rudeness the national pastime
    – NOT littering gets you a fine
    – Being nice to animals gets you a fine
    – Driving carefully and respectfully gets you a fine

    So, thank God we have an American educated (American citizen no less) Prime Minister in Greece who knows how sensible people live. George P. may be the first civil leader Greece has ever known. I love that he doesn’t have to scream to get his point across like the “competing windows on the news channels.

    Ok, well I picked the wrong day to stop drinking Rum I guess.

    Good night

  11. Xenos
    November 7, 2009    

    Just found the rules for Spain: children born there can get Spanish citizenship after one year, even if they had another one at birth. Greece won’t even allow children born in Greece to have a residence permit at 18 unless they have a job or formal study. It is a disgrace.

  12. Post Disagrement
    November 7, 2009    

    Travolos K. you are comparing apples to oranges.

    You are actually the one insisting on a ridiculous extreme of proving 100% ethnic purity.

    Somewhere between the sentiments of

    1) even a Martian can land & hatch eggs in Greece and we can all sing coumbia and
    2) the sentiment of 100% descended from ancient people who resided here

    is the fact that all ethnicities are to a great degree connected by their common overlapping history, heritage and yes genetics and extended kinship.

    The Greek ethnicity to me is defined as people who to some degree have some COMMON ancestry with the inhabitants of what’s present day Greece and in neighboring areas whose ancestors spoke Greek and identified as Greeks or Hellenes or Romioi. Share a common heritage.

    Shaniqua from Nigeria and Shuzumi from Japan and Mohammed from Bangladesh are disqualified as being ethnically Greek..completely different cultures and 100% chance that there is no recent historically genetic connection to the rest of the tribe.

    Now that does not mean these people are less than or better than me. Just stating the obvious people are different, racially, culturally.

    Travolos you keep denying the reality of ethnicity being at least in part “genetically” or kinship based…just because i.e. Turkish Muslims who may be descended from ancient Greeks in part are not considered Greek today or other such arguments.

    Problem is with automatic citizenship for just being born:

    1) it will just create another magnet for an attempt to get in, because if Fatima can just hold off until she crosses into the EU to hatch her eggs, she can secure EU citizenship for her and her kids regardless of whether she got in legally.

    2) it threatens the native demographic with shifts that would imperil them to becoming minority in their homeland with such a minimalist criteria and considering the birth rate differentials.

    Perhaps I would be more in favor of it if it was limited to children of parents who already had some kind of legal status already.

    In summary

    1) Greece and the EU do not NEED and polls show most people do not want any more immigration.
    2) Automatic citizenship just for being born is problematic. The residency thing might make more sense.
    3) Noticing that there are races is not racist.

    i.e., my neighbor down the street is equally human etc. to me but i care about my family and helping them more than my neighbor. this does not mean I hate my neighbor or am not willing to help him but as the saying goes family first.

    Likewise are these source nations exactly bastions of liberal tolerance, modernity, civlization etc that you think anyone can sneek in and fit right in?

    I am not against permitting some capped number of people who are born in Greece and meet some other criteria having the right to apply for citizenship, and having legal residency but I think its a big mistake to make it automatic esp. if the parents are not here legally.

    if they are legal, then that should be given consideration.

    But this loophole of sneek in and lay your eggs and thats it is just inviting trouble.

    Xenos since you are British and Jewish can you tell us how British and Israeli policy handle this matter of illegal immigrants having children in their countries and how do you feel about that?

    I am sure Britain is more liberal but Israel is more strict on this matter..

    Do you KNOW of any NATION that is not majority European heritage that has immigration and grants automatic citizenship for being born there?

    I.e. why is it that only European based societies are being asked to invite the world.?

    Japan is rich, Korea is relatively rich, Many Africans would love to live in Israel over there own states if they could..

    I wonder how Jamaica handles it, Diva?

    i.e., you are asking Greece to be generous handing out the citizenship and accusing us of racism (hating others)..what about the states that are homelands for your ethny?

    Basically shouting racism is just a means to silence any criticism of mass immigration and mass demographic transformation..i.e. critiquing the social engineering of th Frankfurt school of cultural Marxist and the international banksters NOW agenda.

    i.e. it is often echoed from Jewish apologist for Israel that they need a homeland that is safe for Jews. Why don’t Italians need one for Italians and Greeks for Greeks?

    Did you see the recent news from Italy: More PC nonsense in Italy, it might offend a Muslim to see a cross so lets change our culture and the way the majority does things or the cultural items it is attached to. Next if we don’t convert to Islam we will be considered small minded and hateful.

    Do you think that the Brits really consider Greeks living in London fellow Brits?

    Lets just stick to the world of reality.

    It laughable that Ban Ki-moon lectures Greece about migration…how many immigrants does South Korea invite..oh ZERO thats right.

    You can accept and respect other peoples of different races, you do not have to lie and say there is no such things as ethnicities and races…its as clear as day that there are different races as its clear that there are different breeds of dogs and cats that share a common canine hood if you will but each breed has its own features, strengths and weaknesses..you can’t tell me a collie is beagle.

    ethnicities are tribes.. and tribes are not about 100% purity but yes genetic kinship is a part of it.

    If somebody really loves Greece, Greeks, and the language and culture and assimilates and come from a similar cultural heritage or is willing to adapt to the majority then that person can more easily assimilate into the tribe.

    But dont pee on my leg and tell me its raining…people who practice female circumcision, have polygamy, have their wives and daughters covered from head to toe, can come by with a dna analysis proving they are descended from alexander the Great…they are not going to fit in and are going to cause trouble, esp since the culture they originate from considers the majority of the members of tribe to be gavurs or infidels.

  13. Post Disagrement
    November 7, 2009    

    And whats wrong with referendums.

    Thats the ultimate in democracy (rule by the people).

    Its better than having myopic politicians imposing agendas of social engineers.

  14. Melpomeni
    November 7, 2009    

    Zorkon is right. We Greeks are treloi and irrational at times.

  15. Cyd
    November 7, 2009    

    So, let’s cut the crap shall we? It’s racism, pure and simple.

    Thankfully, this tired old saw is finally losing its luster and punch as people are finally standing up to disingenuous twats who use it willy nilly. The leftards were so empowered with their new bludgeoning tool that they were guilty of overusing to stifle any form of dissent, legitimate or not. Well, people don’t much care any more and will care even less in the very near future. So I thank this Lout for another example of his archaic ideology that is as dated as bell bottom pants and shag carpet.

    People have a basic human right to preserve their nations for their posterity and no amount of word play from mendacious twats will ever change that. People have a basic human right to decide what is best for them and not some elected “elite”. They also have a basic human right to not be genocided out of existence due to policies that lead to their disposition.

    As others above have alluded to, people tolerate a lot, until they don’t.

  16. Xenos
    November 7, 2009    

    Racist Greeks and a refusal to conform to modern standards of human rights. I have no more to say.

  17. Cyd
    November 7, 2009    

    Apparently to the Lout, some population’s human rights are “more equal” than others. Taken to the absurd, a person sneaking into your home has more rights to your belongings and house as well as greater protection than you do. Strange times we live in, especially when we allowed the lunatics to run the asylum.

    P.S. I have plenty more to say as logic and common sense lie squarely on my side.

  18. Cyd
    November 7, 2009    

    See what I mean about having more to say?

    a refusal to conform to modern standards of human rights

    No one ever included the population of western nations in any dialogue that involved demographic changes that would alter their nations and lives. There has been NONE and as fact, the opposite holds true where elites, such as Labour, actively took part in flooding England and Europe with as many “new voters” as possible under the radar from prying eyes. So, this “conforming to modern standards” is a red herring as it has never been openly discussed or agreed upon. The Lout knows what he can do with this little tidbit of his.

  19. Post Disagrement
    November 7, 2009    

    Racist Greeks and a refusal to conform to modern standards of human rights. I have no more to say.

    ………

    I am not sure if this was directed at me or Cyd.

    But nonetheless..using terms like racist is just a way to silence disagreement.

    Define Racist.

    Hatred of other races?

    Who said anything about hate.

    I am not even a “purist” i.e., no immigration ever all have to leave. I am just saying we have plenty here now..and most of the illegals should go, unless there is some reason they should be granted residence …not citizenship.

    Racist Israel, Racist Japanese, Racist Koreans, Racist Turkey, Racist Iran, Racist Germany, Racist Black Zimbabweans…

    So what countries besides European ones are asked to adhere to so called modern standards as you call automatic birth right citizenship to children of non-citizens?

    Oh none. Not Japan, Not Korea, Not Israel. Not any Arab state.

    In switzerland.. the locals get a say in whether a non-citizen can become a swiss citizen as someone has pointed out somewhere else on this board.

    Racist Switzerland.

    And these source countries are modern advanced civilizations.

    Dont get me wrong there is plenty wrong in Greece that has nothing to do with migrants.

    But it is obnoxious to endure these name calling just because someone does not agree with a political position or policy regarding migrants.

    This is a social marxist tool.

    I am not denigrating the migrants humanity, but their has to be respect for nations borders and the will of the host country regarding who it will let in or not.

  20. Post Disagrement
    November 7, 2009    

    And if you read my post….you would see concern about immigration is not just about DNA/race.

    Its about jobs, resources, social services, assimilation, cultures clashing, etc…

    note the last part of my lengthy post touching on DNA (“race”)
    as you put it.

    “…people who practice female circumcision, have polygamy, have their wives and daughters covered from head to toe, can come by with a dna analysis proving they are descended from alexander the Great…they are not going to fit in and are going to cause trouble, esp since the culture they originate from considers the majority of the members of tribe to be gavurs or infidels.”

    Also, I notice no one on the liberal side of the immigration issue and this automatic birth right citizen ship policy answers the question:

    Which Non_european based country has this kind of policy?
    (there are rich non-european based countries, Japan, Korea, Gulf states, even western state of Israel does not grant automatic birth right citizenship to non-citizens children).

    instead you just call me a name and you think that will shut down any push back on these important policy issues.

  21. AntiMultiCulturalism
    November 9, 2009    

    What is wrong with modern Greek politicians? I mean seriously I don’t know if it’s stupidity or just plain vote-mongering(or both).

    It’s just common sense! Your illegal, you have to go. Your legal, you have residence rights for you and your family.

    I mean what do they want the citizenship for? Voting?
    Please, this is not their country! They don’t have the right and shouldn’t gain it, of choosing what is right or wrong in this country. They have the right to express themselves all they want but voting and going for office is for Greeks only. If they don’t like that, they can go somewhere else. Nobody has them in chains!

    As for Papanderou, the new “Prime Minister”, he is a stupid mammas-boy without an ounce of decency. With an idiot like him and with ideas like these it is only certain that Greece will suffer.

  22. Xenos
    November 9, 2009    

    Since everything that Greeks do is illegal, I suggest that all Greeks also leave Greece. Actually, it would be a better place for it…

  23. AntiMultiCulturalism
    November 9, 2009    

    Since everything that Greeks do is illegal

    Wow, lets bring our hands together for the MOST racist comment I have ever read in a long time. Perharps Xenos thinks our very existence is offensive. I guess Greeks aren’t human so they have no rights.
    Why don’t you just drop a few nuclear bombs and get on with it?
    But then, oops, your precious immigrants and Turks will be affected also. And then for whom will you be the self-proclaimed “protector of human rights”?

  24. Xenos
    November 9, 2009    

    A statement of fact — that Greece is a country of corruption and illegality — you make out to be racist. Whereas your views on who is entitled to citizenship or legal protection are perfectly reasonable? hahahaha

    Typical Greek malakies.

  25. Cyd
    November 9, 2009    

    A statement of fact — that Greece is a country of corruption and illegality — you make out to be racist. Whereas your views on who is entitled to citizenship or legal protection are perfectly reasonable? hahahaha

    There are MANY statement of facts that you conveniently ignore in order to push forth a flawed and untenable ideology, you hypocritical piece of crap. How about addressing those humongous cracks in your facade first before going about malakies, which no doubt you are an expert in considering your entire existence is one big malakia! LOL

    Actually don’t even bother addressing anything as no one is interested in your ignorant bullshit.

  26. Cyd
    November 9, 2009    

    AntiMultiCult,

    Xenos is your stereotypical “elite” or advisor to an elite and it is shocking that we have people who absolutely hate us, our people, our culture and, as you say, our existence in such positions of authority and power. Is it any wonder that these sub-human filth have created such a mess for the west? The good news is that, human nature is what it is and as the tide, political will goes in and out of favor. This turd, Xenos, still speaks as if we are in the early 90s, yet thankfully we are not. People by the droves are fed up with the lies of these vermin and are pretty much at the end of the line in their patience.

    The issue of Greeks being corrupt and flawed in no way absolves their methodical genocide of an entire people. This is another lie from his little brain that has never been questioned by the lapdogs around him.

    BTW, thanks for the comment in the other thread.

  27. sawthis
    November 9, 2009    

    “Greece might be the last truly Balkan nation.. . . the Greeks seem determined to live up, or down, to the worst stereotypes of Balkan emotionalism. . . Television stations and every Athens newspaper [during NATO’s bombing of Yugoslavia were] all wildly anti-American . . . Greece lives on the southern tip of the Balkan peninsula, where Europe slides into the Islamic Middle East. It is a peasant land . . . its politics, food and music are closer to Istanbul or Damascus than to London or Paris. Passion too often dominates reason, and the Balkan disease–too much history, not enough vision–is endemic. . . a millennium of rule by Byzantine and Ottoman emperors meant that Greece, like Russia, missed all the great events . . . that created the skeptical and cooler Western mind. . . So it was barely 50 years ago that Greece’s history diverged from the Balkan norm. For a half-century, it became allied to the West, first through NATO, then through the European Union. Fifty years, apparently, is not enough to shake off the Balkan mind-set–instinctive nationalism, brooding victimization, an obsession with history and a reflexive hostility toward neighbors–that inspired Serbia’s assaults on the rest of the former Yugoslavia. . . Greece has been the most inconstant of allies, both within NATO (unlike Turkey, it avoids most military cooperation with its allies) and within the EU (other Europeans admit they are sorry they let the Greeks in) . . . These disputes keep Greeks in a ferment that boils over whenever there is trouble in the region, as there was over Kosovo. Blame is quickly assigned to the cause of this trouble–in this case Clinton and the Muslim Kosovars. Reason takes a holiday and demonstrators take to the streets. . . In a post-Cold War world, Greece could be a luxury the West no longer can afford. There are Balkan countries including Bulgaria and Romania that are eager to join the West, in every sense, and gave NATO much more help in the Kosovo war than did the Greeks. It is legitimate for the West to tell the Greeks that it saved them from Stalin and protected them from Turkey and that it expects more in return than tantrums. . . Most Balkan states, except for Serbia, clearly want to join the West. The Greeks already are there, but only precariously and perhaps temporarily. Poised between Europe and the Middle East, they haven’t really decided where they belong. One day, their exasperated allies may settle the issue for them.”

  28. Cyd
    November 10, 2009    

    In regards to the comment of “sawthis” just above mine, all that needs to be said is this. For any logical and reasonable person, whether any point in his comment is true is immaterial even though many are true and some are complete fabrications. You see, all of it can be true and it matters not one iota to the issue at hand and that is; Greece and Greeks have the absolute human right to decide what is best for themselves and not be genocided out of existence. That goes for all the nations of the west. Greeks may make horrendous decisions that eventually lead to their disenfranchisement, displacement, or even extinction. However, it is theirs and theirs alone to make. Not some foreign elite like Xenos and his ilk in Brussels. And with that said, we certainly know that the “solution” to the accusations made in sawthis’ comment is not mass immigration.

  29. Xenos
    November 10, 2009    

    What this scum who calls himself Cyd means, is that Greeks can do as they like and everyone else can fuck off. But that’s exactly what sawthis is saying! Greeks need to toe the line and learn to obey the rule of law. Hard luck for all the mafia and criminals who love Greece.

  30. Cyd
    November 10, 2009    

    What this scum who calls himself Cyd means, is that Greeks can do as they like and everyone else can fuck off.

    Yes, exactly, my dimwitted dipshit. All within their boundaries and as long as they do not commit atrocities. Deportations and denial of citizenship are not atrocities, if done in a civilized and humane manner. Greeks can then suffer the consequences if their actions results in sub-optimal living standards for the citizenry. This way, they may be poor and hungry, though they will have their own living space for their own offspring. Another bonus is that necessity is the mother of invention. Currently Greeks, most of them at least, are fat, lazy and await the handout from the nanny state. Take that away and you will see how innovative Greeks can be. What is not acceptable is what you have been proposing which is ethnic and racial genocide. See the difference, idiot?

  31. Cyd
    November 10, 2009    

    Another quick point is why does this Lout seem to hate Greek law breakers more than immigrant law breakers? You’d think only Greeks ever committed any crimes.

  32. Post Disagreement
    November 10, 2009    

    Xenos says:
    November 9, 2009 at 2:50 pm

    Since everything that Greeks do is illegal, I suggest that all Greeks also leave Greece. Actually, it would be a better place for it…
    …………….

    Thats just silly..and racist too.

    Everything that Greeks do is illegal.

    Lets change the word Greek with Jew how does it sound.

    Everything that Jews do is illegal.

    See this is exactly what I mean..you can not even disagree in a civil manner. You sometimes do and then you stoop to comments like that.

    Regardless of anything Cyd or anyone else says thats not fair to say ALL Greeks do Illegal things.

    and by that what do you mean by that?

    What illegal according to whose code?

    Anyway you are very hostile to Greece and Greeks.

    And considering your self-identified heritage perhaps since you are having no success in convincing Greeks on your views or policy suggestions you might want to speak to your British Compatriots in the UK or your ethno/religious kinsmen in Israel about human rights.

    I do not think you are going to win anybody over with your approach and your extremist stands of policies that are set to bring Greeks into minority status in Greece.

    Since you were so nasty to all Greeks just now by saying Greece would be better without us and that we all do illegal things, how would you feel if someone said to you all Jews do illegal things and Europe would be better off if they all left and moved to Israel?

  33. Post Disagreement
    November 10, 2009    

    At the end of the day the will of the people in a democracy needs to be the guiding principle about these issues.

    I do not believe most Greeks are heartless monsters as Xenos and Diva like to portray. I feel if Asylum policy suggestions were presented in a moderate way with reasonable suggestions and without name calling or tantrum throwing towards those who do not agree you would see more progress on that issue.

    At one point Xenos did state we do not need any more (economic) migrants. So at least there we can see he can be reasonable at times.

    I can not speak for Cyd or Anti Multi Culti etc.

    but I think most reasonable people should have no problem with the following:

    1) Asylum seekers, ONE determined to be legitimate, should be processed and given some allowance for residence within the limits and Caps set by the government (somewhere between 400 and 20,000 a year there must be some agreeable number to most people)…

    2) immigrants…we do not need any more economic migrants

    a) the ones here without work and no other ties or have not been here long..should be given incentive and means to leave (carrot stick approach, money and ticket to go, after a few months jail and penalties and fines if you dont).

    b) others who are working here need to be handled on a case by case basis.

    3) Children born to those who are not citizens should not be given automatic birth right citizenship.

    However, those born to legal residents who lived in Greece for sometime should be allowed to have some residency status and perhaps based on certain criteria eventually citizenship (also in line with predetermined caps and perhaps as in the swiss model, the locality on lives in has some say.

    Your born to a gate crashers…then that has to be handled more strictly still.

  34. Baby Shaq
    November 10, 2009    

    Post disagreement said: I do not believe most Greeks are heartless monsters as Xenos and Diva like to portray

    PD, you’ve never been to Sklavenitis supermarket on a busy day. Absolute Chaos, no one pays attention to common courtesy. When I travel abroad, and see Greek people acting like Greeks (read pushing/cutting the line etc) at airports abroad. I tell them Signome, Kyreia, you’re not in Greece anymore, manners and good behavior now apply!!

  35. Xenos
    November 10, 2009    

    The Sklavenitis I sometimes use (in Exarcheia) is actually well-mannered, whereas the Marinopoulos supermarkets in Kolonaki have disgusting clients. The standard of behaviour is below third world, for the most part.

    Regardless of this delight of Greek manners, the point is that some people here have the gall to complain that immigrants in Greece do not have the correct documentation. My point is that everything Greeks do is illegal (not to mention abusively handled) so what is the big deal? Greece is a country of illegality and corruption: deal with it, and stop trying to deny it.

    Now, as I agree with PD, there is a problem that there new illegal migrants cannot possibly find work, so only those with genuine asylum claims should be able to stay. Again, this needs to be dealt with, instead of complaining about Turkey.

    The final issue, the focus of this thread, is about the rights of immigrant children. These are set out in international human rights law: deal with it. Stop complaining about everyone else.

  36. Cyd
    November 10, 2009    

    And considering your self-identified heritage perhaps since you are having no success in convincing Greeks on your views or policy suggestions you might want to speak to your British Compatriots in the UK or your ethno/religious kinsmen in Israel about human rights.

    Is the Lout, Jewish? If he is, he is an even bigger hypocrite than even *I* took him for. I’m shocked.

  37. Post Disagreement
    November 11, 2009    

    ost disagreement said: I do not believe most Greeks are heartless monsters as Xenos and Diva like to portray

    ………………

    baby shaq …your response is the best you can do…
    rudeness in a crowded grocery store = heartless monsters

    how about holding 1.5 million people in a huge prison camp denying them food and water and bombing them with phosphorus now that’s heartless. but the people doing that are related to Xenos and are not Greek.

    I was merely alluding to the fact that there are Greek humanitarian workers, priests, lay people, etc. who feed the hungry and provide medical care to migrants .we even had blood drives to give blood to turks in 1999 due to their earthquake tragedy.

    are greeks saints no they are just people like all other people…..

    See I am really only aware of one tribe on earth that indoctrinates its children in to thinking those outside of it are lower subhuman forms of life in human form and that the supreme being loves them only…and its okay to lie cheat or steal from all those others because they are special and can treat others like shit.

    I was never taught that by my parents or church.

    ………

    your point Xenos is:

    My point is that everything Greeks do is illegal (not to mention abusively handled) so what is the big deal? Greece is a country of illegality and corruption: deal with it, and stop trying to deny it.
    ….

    is typically Jewish…racist and hateful..and typically British..condescending and arrogant…typically you..

    ……..

    Greece is a country of illegality and corruption: deal with it, and stop trying to deny it.

    ….we learned from the masters of corruption then seeing how they have lived amongst us for so long.

    ……..

    truth be told, NO i do not think this way about all Jews.

    But am merely being offensive to dish it back.

    You can make nasty generalizations against Greeks and its okay with the “lady” that runs this board.

    Do you like it when people say Jews are criminals/evil?

    Of course not, so I do not like it when you are saying the same about my people as a whole.

    if you want to criticize policy, leaders, government, etc thats fair game but painting us with this broad brush of all of us being evil doers…is not okay..and probably why you have such a hard time presenting your case on your positions to others.

    now can someone please stop side stepping my question..

    why is it only European based cultures are being asked to be swamped by the masses….japan does not, israel does not, gulf states do not make citizens of non muslims non arabs…all rich

  38. AntiMultiCulturalism
    November 11, 2009    

    Getting back to the point at hand-citizenship for children-I don’t understand how that can work.
    If a child is in Greece with its parents and they don’t have don’t have legal documentation or aren’t genuine asylum seekers, theb they have to return to their country of origin.
    If a child is here alone then the officials need to locate any relatives it may have, otherwise it will need to be sent to an orphanage.
    But really the idea of giving someone citizenship just because he or she was born in Greece or has given birth to a child in Greece is simply ridiculous!
    By the way, what do they want the citizenship for? Their human rights are protected anyways. The only actual advantage citizenship offers is the right to vote. I mean, why do immigrants want voting rights anyways?
    As Xenos said this a land of illegality and viciousness, oh and bad manners which somehow is the basic flaw needed to be considered a heartless monster.
    So, why don’t they give themselves a break and go back home?

  39. Xenos
    November 11, 2009    

    I did not say “viciousness”. The fact is that most come from war zones or countries of abject poverty and Greece as a part of the EU has a legal obligation to protect them.

    Citizenship of the country where you were born and educated is a normal thing in the developed world: I’m sorry to hear that Greeks want Greece to remain as Third World.

  40. AntiMultiCulturalism
    November 11, 2009    

    Citizenship of the country where you were born and educated is a normal thing in the developed world

    That’s not entirely true! Israel and Japan don’t offer citizenship to foreigners, why should Greece?
    In fact, seeing what goes on in Brittain and France, I don’t understand what the Greek people will earn by offering citizenship to immigrants. Can somebody please answer this simple question?
    What will improve in Greece if it goes multicultural?

  41. Cyd
    November 11, 2009    

    Ummm…why do we treat this shit eating turd as if he is some authority? It is clear he is an academic midget. It is also clear he is quite hostile towards the people that give him the honor of living in their space, not to mention he is a utter hypocrite.

    No, we do not need to request answers from a liar and hypocrite with ulterior motives. Sorry. He certainly can look for the door and use to get the f*ck out of Greece though. That he still can do, but not much else.

  42. Post Disagreement
    November 11, 2009    

    Xenos says:
    November 11, 2009 at 5:05 pm

    I did not say “viciousness”. The fact is that most come from war zones or countries of abject poverty and Greece as a part of the EU has a legal obligation to protect them.

    Citizenship of the country where you were born and educated is a normal thing in the developed world: I’m sorry to hear that Greeks want Greece to remain as Third World.

    …………

    actually the war zone thing would apply to asylum seekers/refugees …you are confounding the second category of economic migrants with the first when you way people living in abject poverty.

    MOST of the world is in abject poverty…immigration to the west is not the solution…nor would it work for the west or the sending countries as a solution..it might help relatively few people proportionally speaking.

    In any case there are limits and we have reached them here with economic migrants and in fact Greece will sink down as will all majo0r western nations if they continue to be flooded with abject poverty..
    rather than importing people we would be better off in exporting professionals to advise these poorer nations to develop their country..

    or better yet maybe the illegal/immoral International Finance can just forgive the debt that they foisted on these people.

    :) Now those Rothschilds, Warburg, Schiff, etc. they are evil and illegal. and they are NOT Greek but of some of there category.

  43. Travlos Konstantinos
    November 11, 2009    

    PD you do understand that your proposals about citizenship are worst then Cyds full expulsion? You would let some people come in, be born here, go to school and grow up here, only know Greece as a country, and give them no way to protect their lives and livelihood. There has never,ever been a case of a minority, or people who have not been discriminated if they do not have voting rights. Voting rights is the only way to protect your rights legally. Otherwise your only choice is the gun. Your system is guaranteed to create discrimination and lead to radicalization of the subjects (no point in calling people without voting rights as anything else but subjects). Cyd at least makes that impossible since no subject minority will exist.

    I am not saying that first generation immigrants should get citizenship, but if second generation immigrants do have citizenship they can defend there rights. You can avoid an expansion of citizenship to first generation immigrants buy a constitutional amendment which is hard to overturn. I disagree with DD’s and Xenos view, and Cyd’s because it is hard for any country that remains liberal capitalist to isolate itself to that degree (And Japan is paying for that isolation as we speak). But your system is problematic because it doesn’t avoid the outcome you want to avoid. It just makes the minority smaller.

  44. Oath Taken
    November 11, 2009    

    Travlos:
    a) 1st (I’d say 0th as they were not born in Greece) gen immigrants CAN apply for citizenship if they have been permanent residents for 10 consecutive years. Some other requirements apply as well (greek language skills, knowledge of the culture and the history etc. that are proven via exams). Not all applications are accepted – nor are they all rejected either. The only legitimate gripes I’ve heard about it are:
    1) The lack of transparency – up until now a rejection did not have to include a justification – I think that was supposed to have changed recently but I could be wrong.
    2) The cost – the application process is not cheap. Then again it is not cheap in the USA either.
    b) Radicalization of the population can happen even if they have voting rights. That was shown in the USA with the masses of the American children of the illegal immigrants taking to the streets waving Mexican and other foreign flags. In fact when they have voting rights you have a proper militant minority in your hands that you have to deal with using kid gloves. I’ve pointed out to you again and again that among the most numerous immigrant group in Greece there are UCK supporters that see Greece as their national enemy. Your (and the new government’s) experimentations will give them the one important weapon they currently miss – citizenship. Guns they already have. And we have an example of how a country turns into a madhouse when militant Albanians with the vote get involved – just cross the border north of Florina to see with your own eyes.
    That said, the latent antisemitism and racism of the comments of the people opposing you Travle is something I cannot agree with. But it’s less surprising than to see a young man raised in Greece that still believes in uncle Milton’s (God NOT rest his soul) economic fairy tales.

  45. Xenos
    November 11, 2009    

    Cyd: your existence is an offence to civilisation and a shame for Greeks. Go fuck yourself.

    Konstantinos: I dont understand what you disagree with.

    All of you: you seem to be ignorant of the fact that Greece is a member of the EU and the Council of Europe, is bound by the jurisprudence of the ECJ and ECHR. Basically, as I keep telling you, if you dont like Europe go and join the Arab countries. Stop whining about Israel and Japan, as if they were part of European civilisation. For fuck’s sake, try to learn a bit about the continent Greece resides in, instead of wanting to be like Turkey.

  46. Post Disagreement
    November 12, 2009    

    All of you: you seem to be ignorant of the fact that Greece is a member of the EU and the Council of Europe, is bound by the jurisprudence of the ECJ and ECHR.

    ………………………….

    so according to you this means grant auto birth right citizenship and pursue suicidal policies that will make the indigenous people minorities.

    …………………………..

    Basically, as I keep telling you, if you dont like Europe go and join the Arab countries. Stop whining about Israel and Japan, as if they were part of European civilisation.
    ……………

    Considering that groups like EJC advise/lecture the EU and the big mouths like you are Jewish its only appropriate to bring up the hypocrisy of Jews supporting mass immigration of noneuropeans into europe and multiculturalization of our societies while supporting that their kins folk in israhell can do what thy like and have an exclusive state.

  47. AntiMultiCulturalism
    November 12, 2009    

    What you’re saying Xenos is that if the EU tells to eat shit we’re supposed to comply like good little bitches. Well you still didn’t answer my question, what motive does Greece have to offer citizenship to immigrants? By the way, fuck EU, if they don’t like us they can get us out themselves!

  48. Post Disagrement
    November 12, 2009    

    PD you do understand that your proposals about citizenship are worst then Cyds full expulsion?

    ………………….

    You know what you are right.

    Here is my point:

    Greeks for the most part want Greece to remain strongly majority Greek ( at all age brackets ).

    We have accepted plenty of immigrants for the size of our economy enough is enough.

    If someone came in here illegal or never has had legal residency and they have kids here that does not obligate Greece to offer them citizenship and residency. Their parents fucked up.

    Now if someone has legal residency and has kids they should mak it known their intention to apply for citizenship for them and their child right away as soon as its born.. and then the state should decided whether it wants to renew their residency permit or not…with the understanding if they do they may be obligated to grant citizenship the longer they stay….But a responsible state would tell those who are here legally that if they have kids here they may loose residency and be asked to leave…bcause it will unsettle the native demographic..

    All this should be based on some preset cap.

    We are past the societal comfort levels and labor needs for any economic immigration.

    NO MORE economic migrants.

    The only legitimate people to be taking about are True asylum seekers and what capacity we have to absorb and deal with them.

    there are easily millions of legitimate asylum seekers and refugees they all are legitimate but there is only so much capacity in receiving societies.

    and if a nation is seen as a soft touch they will migrate there.

    My position is that automatic birth right citizenship is a bad idea.

    But if someone is born and raised here to Legal residents then we are dealing with another situation.

    You are saying lts just someone pop out a kid and presto three new Greek citizen the mom, the dad and the baby.

    Thats silly and ridiculous.

    If the EU and ECJ have rules that disregard the desire of the indigenous peoples of each European state to maintain their nationhood (majorities) then those are evil rules.

    And besides the EU is not so great and is not protecting Greek interests…in fact by being in the EU the Pakistanis are drawn to Greece thinking if they land here they can become EU citizens.

    EU does nothing to pressure Turkey to leave Cyprus
    does nothing to push Turkey to keep its agreements with Greece regarding migrants..etc’
    so what good is the EU…foisting its horrible EURO currency on us and controlling us from the ECB a privately owned bankster bank.

    WHY ARE EUROPEANS OBLIGATED TO BECOME MINIORITIES IN THEIR NATION STATES? WHAT AN INVERSION OF THE TERM HUMAN RIGHTS.

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