The only thing necessary for the persistence of evil is for enough good people to do nothing

Children and Citizenship

There seems to be a huge amount of talk about changes that Pasok (the recently elected socialist government in Greece) are keen to bring in. I sincerely hope that this is more than just chatter. There are many thousands of children born here to immigrant parents waiting to be granted citizenship.

I have a friend who went through ten years of bureaucracy and rejection before finally being granted citizenship here despite having been born and educated here. At eighteen, his status changed to illegal immigrant and he could not work, open a bank account, get a drivers licence or any of the things we take for granted. He managed to get temporary residency that had to be renewed intervals, the psychological toll was horrific. He felt rejected by the only country that he had known. The message he recieved loud and clear was “You will never be Greek. We will grant you permission to stay but only if you jump through these hoops as many times as we see fit”.

When the final stage of the citizenship process arrived, he had to study for the exam. This is supposed to determine your knowledge of Greek history, culture and politics and ultimately, his “Greekness”. We (foreigners and Greeks alike) were stunned by the questions he was asked. How many of my Greek friends could answer the mock tests questions correctly ? None. Not one.

My friend has citizenship now but it is his turn to do the rejecting. This bright young man is leaving at the first opportunity he gets. Very sad indeed.

Via the Guardian

A generation of migrant children who were born and raised in Greece but never officially recognised will be granted Greek citizenship, the newly elected socialist government has announced.

The step – part of a wide-ranging overhaul of immigration policies long condemned by international organisations – could affect up to 200,000 children who though Greek in everything but name have never been afforded nationality.

“This country can no longer go on being a hell for migrants,” said Michalis Chrysochoidis, the minister in charge of the newly created citizens’ protection ministry. Human rights activists say the measure will overturn a “surreal” situation where children whose immigrant parents have legally settled in Greece are treated as “aliens” with no rights at all.

“Absurd is too light a word to describe the lot of these kids,” said Petros Papaconstantinou, a prominent anti-racism spokesman. “Even if born in Greece, even if they attend Greek schools and speak only Greek, which invariably is the case, on paper they don’t exist at all.”

Without official documentation the children were often subject to abuse, arrest and deportation at the age of 18, he said. “There are children whose parents are from Africa, Asia and countries like Albania who are enrolled at schools across Greece but who have no papers whatsoever. In Europe this is unique.”

Under the reforms, unaccompanied children held in overcrowded detention centres will also be released. In recent months there have been a series of rebellions in migrant camps on Lesbos and other Aegean islands, often led by minors protesting against poor living conditions.

While other parts of Europe have seen a decline in illegal immigration, Greece has experienced a 50% surge, with its easternmost islands bearing the brunt of the influx. Most of the migrants, who cross over from Turkey, are from Asia, Africa and countries such as Iraq and Afghanistan. “Greece remains the main entry point for illegal immigrants into Europe,” said Gil Arias Fernandez, the deputy director of Frontex, the EU border agency.

While Turkey has been criticised for failing to stop the flow, Greece has also been denounced for its “inhuman” handling of migrants. Human rights groups accused the former conservative government of illegally expelling thousands across the border into Turkey.

Following the death of a Pakistani immigrant in police custody in Athens last week, the socialists also plan to integrate immigrants into the police and place psychologists at stations nationwide.

Technorati Tags: , , , ,

51 Comments

  1. Oath Taken
    October 22, 2009    

    How many Americans can answer the questions asked on the US citizenship test successfully? Ah, but I forgot – it’s always the bloody Greeks fault – they should be giving out citizenship to everyone who’s come to Greece. I wish the young man all the success he can get with his new Greek passport – I can only presume that without it he would have little to no opportunity of leaving (at least for a better future).

    Just maybe you should consider how sad it is that people that actually care about the place enough to return to it abandoning careers abroad (despite having to deal with a broken and corrupt public sector and a nepotistic private sector) will have equal say in the decision making of the country as the Greek-born children of Wahabi families that consider all the lands where the flag of the prophet once flew over as lands awaiting the return to Islamic rule (yep – that includes Greece). Or the Greek-born Albanian children whose parents taught them from when they were little that the true borders of Greece are below Preveza. Or the Greek-born Bulgarian children whose parents taught them from day one that the Greek regions of Macedonia and Thrace are under occupation since the early 20th century. You get the point.

    Are all children of immigrants anti-Greek nationalists? Of course not and the ones that are not deserve citizenship without having to wait for 10 years – but a fairly significant number – still a minority I hope – indeed are rabid nationalists. Now they get to become Greek citizens automatically without any weeding out process for extremists. Congratulations Diva – when the time comes to pack your bags and go to the UK because Greece has become unfit to live and a bloody mess like some other countries in the Balkans became in the last 20 years because of inter-ethnic conflict, I’m sure you will feel victorious for having done your little part in pressing a country to agree to fuck itself up even further than it already is. Will you take in my family as refugees or won’t there be any space in your London flat?

  2. Post Disagreement
    October 23, 2009    

    While I have sympathy for these kids, I think such a move will inevitably lead to a situation like in the USA and will just invite mexican style chain migraton..i.e. Want EU citizenship poor desperate Pakistani, African, Ukranian, etc.
    just sneek in and lay your eggs in Greece and viola you and your baby are now Greeks.

    I hope that the people who put this together make it very strict so that only the children of legal migrants are afforded this privelege.

    But even then I think that they should be offered legal residency not citizenship.

  3. Post Disagreement
    October 23, 2009    

    Oath Taken, i think you are giving more blame to Diva then she deserves she does not have these power you are talking about.

    keep in mind a lot of these people actually do love Greece and Greeks. No not all of them and probably the Albanians might be most suspect because we share a border with them and history of conflict.

    Nonetheless, Greece is an ethnic homeland for Greeks, (there are extremes who on the one hand want no ethnic minorities even if they been here for some time and others who want a multiracial multireligious hodge podge etc)..however, there are those in high places that want to transform all European countries in to multi racial multi religious hodge podges…to better control the population of those states.

    The Euro is a consolidation of power by a privately run central bank that has no accountability to the people of the EU.

    We can deport people who came here illegaly and are not legit asylum seekers. and should.
    and even asylum seekers need to spread around…i.e. Germany take a portion Greece, etc..not just say Greece is the port entry so Greece is stuck with the issues.

  4. October 23, 2009    

    @Oath Taken
    No, you misunderstand. My friend had a passport from the country his parents were born in. He was born here in Greece. He then had to apply for residency here which got but had to keep renewing. In the end, his only wish was for citizenship of Greece because he was born and educated here and feels Greek. He always had the possibility of travelling to or studying and working in other countries on his original passport.

    What I find sad was the rejection of him as a Greek citizen for so many years that he now feels unable to stay.

    btw, there’ll be no room for you in my swanky London flat because of all the Roma who will be staying with me because I dared to speak up for them too…

  5. Xenos
    October 23, 2009    

    This almost childish mentality about “Greece for Greeks” — and by the way, you can find uneducated Brits shouting a similar slogan, especially the BNP — is derived from their nationalist propaganda about the “purity” of Greek “blood”. Since Greeks, like everyone else, are mongrels, the whole debate is about preserving a pack of lies. Basically, the conservatism of this society is beyond belief.

    “Multicultural multiracial hodgepodge”? Do you mean how most countries of the world are, other than backward tiny island nations where they live in bamboo huts? The only reason Greece is 90% orthodox is that 90 years ago Muslims were killed and driven out and other religions also denied rights. This racial and religious hatred is now illegal in Europe: as I keep saying, with this mentality, Greeks do not belong in Europe.

  6. Oath Taken
    October 23, 2009    

    Diva I understand very well. If your friend could not get a passport from the country of origin of his parents (there are a few such cases) then (AS YOU SHOULD KNOW) he would have had to be granted Greek citizenship since under current statutes (from several years ago) a child born in Greece cannot be stateless. That is if for some reason the citizenship statutes in the country of origin of the parents are 100% jus soli (without the jus sanguinis aspect) and the child is not entitled to their citizenship , then as a result of the international treaty Greece has signed for avoiding the phenomenon of stateless people, the current statute in Greece specifies that the child is entitled to Greek citizenship. And in fact this is the only just soli aspect of the current Greek citizenship laws.

    The question is not whether he had a passport but whether the passport that he had (and still has I guess) opened as many doors abroad as an EU passport. And a reasonable guess is that any logical person would not wait for 10 years of rejection (and fighting an obscene Greek bureaucracy every step of the way, including for things as simple as renewing a residence permit in a timely manner), study and pass the exams for citizenship, give the oath you could not understand the significance of (and based on your silence regarding the rest of my comments wrt. to the nationalism of some of the future Greek citizens, still do not understand) and then decide to leave Greece. A logical person would cut their losses short and leave anytime during these 10 years – unless of course their passport was not as useful as a Greek passport in offering them opportunities in the rest of Europe and elsewhere. Then again maybe your friend is a modern version of Job and loved Greece so much that he suffered through all of this only to lose faith AFTER getting to his target. Maybe he is in which case I will agree with you that it is indeed sad – but you will allow me to doubt that. BTW is your friend going to serve in the army now that he became a citizen? I assume he is still under 40 years old. Or was that prospect the one that broke the camel’s back and changed his love of Greece to a need to get out of there ASAP?

    I made a friend in the army, he was 45 at the time (the limit for compulsory military service being 45 in 2000-2001). He came to Greece as a student from Africa, studied here, fell in love and married a Greek girl, followed up with grad studies in London, had 2 kids and returned with her to live in Greece – abandoning the possibility of a more distinguished career path abroad – working as a store owner in Athens. He followed the rules for applying for citizenship in every detail, and still had to wait for 13 years from the time he first applied to the time he got citizenship , probably because some racist prick in the Interior Ministry kept shelving his applications. He even missed the funeral of his mother as he had to keep a continuous presence in Greece (before you scream bloody murder keep in mind that a similar rule exists in the USA). And at the end of the whole ordeal, he gets his citizenship just in time to be sent to the army for 6 months! And yet his love of the country and the people was such he did not complain! He was so keen on marching with the kids on the day we all gave our military oath that he practiced and practiced despite the pain until he had to be sent to the doctor and ordered into light duty. His story and the story of the other middle aged men that I met from Syria, Lebanon, Nigeria etc. with similar stories are truly sad but they did not give up on Greece despite having every reason to.

    As for your last remark, I find it amazingly funny that the concept of running out of space for refugees is something that you can clearly understand when it comes to your flat in London but refuse to even acknowledge when it comes to Greece. Even more funny is that you and the rest of the gang get upset when Greece shows a preference for immigrants with a Greek or pro-Greek background as it is discriminatory – but in this imaginary scenario you clearly would house the Roma before my relatives in your flat – how do you know the latter would not ring your doorbell first? Unless you are already housing the evicted Votanikos Albanian Roma and you have not told us about it.

    Xenos – what about no granting of Greek citizenship to people that see Greece and Greeks as enemies? Do you think it would be a good idea for the UK for example to grant citizenship to some Wahabi mullah that rails against the West on every occasion and his entourage?

  7. Xenos
    October 23, 2009    

    Greece has almost no recognised refugees at all, so I don’t know what you are talking about when you say Greece is running out of space. If you mean asylum applicants, then there are more, and the Greek state does nothing to sort out the issue. The problem is not with immigrants/asylum-seekers: it’s how Greece deals with them.

    As far as granting citizenship is concerned, there are so few cases of naturalisation of people who later turned against their country that we can forget the idea. The traitors are always those who were automatically granted citizenship by registration (not necessarily at birth). The reluctance to grant Greek citizenship has no rational basis — only racial exclusion.

  8. Xenos
    October 23, 2009    

    Concerning the issue of requirements for “continuous presence” in order to qualify for citizenship, no you are quite wrong. Normal countries like the USA and UK readily give short periods of exemption, arranged compassionate longer periods of exemption (such as the death of a parent), compulsory military service of another state, etc. The problem (as always) is with Greece, which doesn’t have any conception of citizens’ rights (let alone the rights of applicants for citizenship).

  9. Oath Taken
    October 23, 2009    

    Oh really? What is “advance parole” (which is not a right but something left to the discretion of UCSIS) then for then? Death of a parent MAY allow you to get advance parole – it is not guaranteed to. If you had entered the USA illegally to begin with – it is quite difficult to get it even under such circumstances. And I should know as this information was provided to me by immigration lawyers in the USA which are most certainly far more expert on the matter than you are. :-) Asking for advance parole is like rolling the dice – if you have the right pedigree the dice may be more loaded but could still surprise you.

    Greece has no proper immigration policy even though, more than 15 years since it became a prime target for immigration, it should have gotten busy devising one – the fact that the rights of applicants for citizenship (or permanent/10 year residence) are not clear comes as little surprise – unfortunately.

  10. Oath Taken
    October 23, 2009    

    Greece has at least 10% of its population being a mix of recent economic migrants (with or without their families) and asylum seekers. Nearly all of the above came to Greece illegally (there was no other way anyway) without any central planning on how to absorb them in a way that stresses local communities in a more manageable manner. Instead of concentrating on integrating this 10% (which we’ve been very bad at so far) we’re told that we should accept whomever manages to cross the border as a new legal resident and eventually citizen (because essentially that is what the pro-migrant side is asking for – no borders). Will 20% (1 in 5) in less than 30 years be the breaking point for society? Are we supposed to go to 50% before someone thinks the social fabric is being torn apart? Oh – I forgot the social fabric can be stressed indefinately… ;-> Did anyone ask the inhabitants of the land whether they are willing to live with the consequences? After all Diva and yourself have somewhere else to go when all hell breaks loose and we have our local Tetovos and Mogadishus in Greece.

    As for the issue of naturalized citizens who become traitors you’re off the mark. We’re discussing the automatic granting of citizenship to children of immigrants born or raised in Greece (which BTW I would call 1st generation – the parents being 0-th generation but everyone in Greece seems to start the numbering at 1).

    Naturalized citizens are less likely to turn against their new country because
    (a) they had to earn their citizenship so they tend to value it more than someone that gets its automatically (that includes almost all current Greek citizens which is why I found the African friend I wrote about above more patriotic than most of the kids around us in the army)
    (b) they are more afraid they may lose it – many countries such as the USA do strip US citizenship from naturalized citizens that act in a manner that signifies they have not abandoned their previous citizenship and
    (c) they have already been weeded out through a process of exams and interviews. Do you seriously believe that an anti-american activist would get US citizenship if his/her activity was discovered before his interview?

    Personally I could not care less about “racial exclusion” – even more so since I do not believe in the concept of a Greek, Italian, English or other race… I do care about Balkan nationalists or Islamic extremists automatically becoming Greek citizens and then armed with the rights citizenship offers fight the country and its people from inside. All I ask for is a process for weeding out (obviously with only partial success but that is better than no controls) problematic cases coupled with procedures making the process streamlined instead of traumatic for the average applicant who should not be among the trouble makers.

    Now I can see why YOU would actually think that Greece should make citizens out of UCK sympathizers or Wahabist nutjobs. I cannot understand how DD can pretend to care about Greece (and supposedly even Greeks) and think alike. We may be bloody peasants but the tendency towards national suicide we have exhibited over and over does have its limits.

  11. Melba Toast
    October 23, 2009    

    oath taken, don’t compare Greece with America. Compare Greece with a country of comparable size and class. Compare Greece with a similar Balkan country and then make a comparison but don’t put Greece in the same category with a superpower.

  12. Xenos
    October 23, 2009    

    I have never advocated “no borders”, and the policy would be inconsistent with Schengen so Greece cannot do it even if it wants to. I merely ask that there is:

    (a) a proper asylum system, along with humanitarian status for those who might have other claims to remain (Greece has given out about 7000 such residence permits since 2005, but only 6-month permits)

    (b)proper implementation of the EU long term permit, so that it is normal thing rather than a privilege to have secure residence rights

    (c) easier access to permits for employment, so that people do not have to arrive illegally to take up work and go back and forth between legal, illegal and semi-legal status

    (d) a modern citizenship policy, so that the second generation of immigrants can be Greeks (if they desire) and the first generation can naturalise within some framework of rules

    These things are about rights and obligations of both the state and its residents: they have nothing to do with the borders.

  13. Post Disagreement
    October 24, 2009    

    The reluctance to grant Greek citizenship has no rational basis — only racial exclusion

    ………………………………………..

    you mean like in Israel? 😉 the only supposedly western country that can be an ethnostate but the rest have to multiculturalize?

  14. Post Disagreement
    October 24, 2009    

    This almost childish mentality about “Greece for Greeks” — and by the way, you can find uneducated Brits shouting a similar slogan, especially the BNP — is derived from their nationalist propaganda about the “purity” of Greek “blood”. Since Greeks, like everyone else, are mongrels, the whole debate is about preserving a pack of lies. Basically, the conservatism of this society is beyond belief.
    …………………………………………………

    Nothing childish, just realistic and observing what is.

    For the most part it is not about being 100% pure but you are going to say Greece is a mix of ancient greeks, aborigines and chinese people..of course not… Most Greeks are descended of the people that have lived here since ancient times. All nations throughout history have historically resisted the imposition of large numbers of people unlike themselves.

    i.e, according to your thinking it was okay that white settlers pushed aside native americans..hm if we take it to a logical extension after all, they were just looking for a better life?

    The native americans were wrong to resist them.

    ……………………………………………….

    “Multicultural multiracial hodgepodge”? Do you mean how most countries of the world are, other than backward tiny island nations where they live in bamboo huts?
    ……………………………………………….

    You mean backward countries like Japan..

    yes I know there are like 0.2% chinese and koreans and maybe a couple of 100s out of 100,000,000 million japanese of african asylum seekers.

    if you go to japan and live there and have kids there you will never be Japanese…neither will your kids….

    a White Kenyan descended of colonialist..is a European living in Africa they are Kenyan nationals but they will never be Masai.

    You are trying to promote a lying vision of the way the world and people and societies are like.

    i.e. there is no such thing as real Greeks, Germans, Brits, etc..because no group is 100% pure anything..
    so what you are assuming its about being 100% pure.

    If I live in the UK and marry a Greek and have kids with her..they will be Olive skinned Greek looking people not British…maybe by citizenship but not in essence
    ………………………………………………..

    The only reason Greece is 90% orthodox is that 90 years ago Muslims were killed and driven out and other religions also denied rights. This racial and religious hatred is now illegal in Europe: as I keep saying, with this mentality, Greeks do not belong in Europe.
    …………………………………..

    Greece only did the same as all its neighbors.
    and they were not 50 / 50.
    i.e, most of the balkans were christian asia minor was diverse.

    Since its illegal to hate races and religions..why do you hate christians and greeks so much?

    Why do you want us swamped out by the Islamic and third world and loose our nation to any body who could sneek in?

    Just because I would like Greece to remain majority Greek does not mean I hate other races. They have their own lands. We already have a 10% change in demographic …enoiugh is enough..

    this mantra about hate you are a hater is just a NWO psyops to get people to be cooperative in the dispossession of their nations and thus push ahead with global government run by the banksters i.e,. rothschilds and co.

  15. Melba Toast
    October 24, 2009    

    Post Disagreement, you obviously have never been to Israel. In Israel, they have Jewish Israelis, Palestinian Israelis, Jordanian Israelis etc. Many different natinoalities live in the State of Israel and all have citizenship. In fact, that’s something I was very impressed was seeing Palestinians who actually liked Israel compared to all the anti-semetic propaganda we see on TV.

  16. Travlos Konstantinos
    October 24, 2009    

    you mean like in Israel? 😉 the only supposedly western country that can be an ethnostate but the rest have to multiculturalize?

    Israel is multi-cultural. They may claim one ethnicity but that is that, a claim. Serfadim and Askenazi Jews are more different then an Italian and a Greek culturally. Ultra-Orthodox Jews are alien to most Israeli Jews. If you actually had ever met an Israeli you would know these things.

    I love how nationalists hate the very same power that created their nation out of a diversity of villagers and imperial subjects. But hey the rule of the world is not diversity but ever increasing homogenization. How many Hellenic dialects that existed 100 years ago and where spoken by large populations are spoken still by them? How many special local customs and laws are anything but folklore followed one a year for the fun of it? Where are the diverse dresses of every Greek area? How come you wear the same clothes as a Frank?

    Yeah yeah I agree the Zionists created the nation to destroy the freedom of village, tribes, clans , lord and city-states so they can make more money and have less resistance to their free flow of money from feudal lords, villagers, guilds, imperial rights etc. :)

  17. Cyd
    October 24, 2009    

    I have yet to hear from the feculant Lout why a nation of people would be considered “childish” to want to preserve their nation, culture and heritage for their posterity? How is that childish? What is so noble and advantageous about rootless cosmopolitanism that the Lout pushes forth? How about a listing of these glorious successes of multi-cultural societies that hummed harmoniously forever without descending into eventual pain and chaos? How can Greece continue to BE Greek if filled with Louts? The answer is, it cannot. That is their goal, to destroy nations and create a mass of migratory slave labour.

    Israel is for Jews. Others can come, visit, and work but cannot stay or even mingle with the native female population. Even prostitutes! The nation is for JEWS! J-E-W-S. And if people actually HAVE spoken to Israelis, they will know that some Jews are more equal than others in Israel, if you know what I mean. With that said, it is this utter hypocrisy that is allowed for some ethnostates to exist and flourish (with 3 billion dollars gifted annually from the US) while all other western nations have to be inundated with the world’s dregs.

    Have a look at what the Lout’s comrades wanted to do and, in essence, have done to Britain.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/lawandorder/6418456/Labour-wanted-mass-immigration-to-make-UK-more-multicultural-says-former-adviser.html

  18. AntiMultiCulturalism
    October 24, 2009    

    I just to point out a small “mistake” in the Guardian article.
    The pakistani immigrant did not die in custody.
    He was released less than a week after his arrest and died in his home.
    According to the coronary report, he died of pneumonia.

  19. Xenos
    October 24, 2009    

    Fascist Cyd: it has already been pointed out to you, but your brain is too feeble to grasp, that there are many Israeli citizens who are not Jewish. Israel is actually multicultural and multi-religious, although there are extreme right wing fanatics (like Cyd) who want to remove citizenship from all non-Jews. So, stop pushing your POV as if it is reality: it’s just an extreme (and obnoxious) political opinion. It is also the main cause of a non-peace policy currently in operation in Israel: this extremist viewpoint guarantees that Israel will always be at war with Palestine.

    BTW: the Lout here is you, Cyd. Most people don’t like your views and ignorant way of thinking.

  20. CandyMan
    October 24, 2009    

    One point that I wonder if CYD and his kind forget. Roots mean nothing for the Modern Greeks. Do you really think the Ancient Greeks are connected with the modern Greeks we see today?? I don’t think so!! With so many invasions and takeovers of Greece, Greeks are nothing more than a multi-cultural soup of (albeit not by choice) people themselves hundreds of years even before the current foreign immigrants arrived.

    Ancient Greeks were light haired, but most Greeks are similar in appearance to Turks mainly because they were the biggest conqueror. SO, what I say: Welcome the Pakistanis, Africans, etc because they are the Greeks of today and tomorrow. Embrace them and make them feel proud to be Greeks instead of the “frowny welcome” and “lemon sucking” expressions the majority of local Greeks greet foreigners with on a daily basis.

    You reap what you sow! Also, CYD, do you live in Greece? Or are you one of these Arm-chair Greeks living comfortably in the UK or USA?

  21. Travlos Konstantinos
    October 24, 2009    

    I have always said and will always say that all nationalists are the spiritual children of the Maccabees and Zealots. And like them they will fail. Unfortunately they tend to take there people down with them.

    Anyway we have argued and fought over this a hundred times. We know everybody views. Not much new here.

    If Pasok makes that move then it is doing a good move.

  22. Cyd
    October 24, 2009    

    1) No answer, YET AGAIN, from the Lout why nationalism or people wanting to preserve their nation and culture is bad.

    2) You must have evidence on Israel’s immigration policies in order to make such bold statements, right Lout? Please provide this evidence.

    3) The argument by the “CandyMan” is typical of the vermin that infest cultural marxism. That being to dehumanize a people and then it seems more acceptable to take away their culture, their land and ultimately their lives. Let me spell it out for this particular vermin; IT MAKES NO DIFFERENCE WHO IS DESCENDED FROM WHOM! We have people who are Greek (or European) and have been Greek for ages. They, the rightful owners of the land mass called Greece do not want to become “assimilated” and they have this right, at least according to the Geneva Convention on human rights. Here is Article 2 of the Geneva Convention on genocide…take note, Lout!

    Article 2
    In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

    * (a) Killing members of the group;
    * (b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
    * (c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
    * (d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
    * (e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

    The Lout and his ilk are guilty of attempting to foist genocide up a people by importing unwanted, massive immigration that affects the native peoples in accordance to c and d above.

  23. Cyd
    October 24, 2009    
  24. Cyd
    October 24, 2009    

    I have always said and will always say that all nationalists are the spiritual children of the Maccabees and Zealots.

    Great. Maybe you can coin it and make a few bucks selling it to your friends of like mind.

    Though a troubling thought keeps surfacing and that is; are the anti-racist, mass immigration proponents and full blown cultural cuckoos not zealots? We see the king kook himself here stumbling all over himself and back pedaling about his “facts” whenever confronted? This is certainly a religious approach to a topic, considering his “evidence” in defending his stances comes out his ass as he is prostrating to his G-d of egalitarianism.

  25. Post Disagreement
    October 24, 2009    

    The myth that the ancient Greeks were mostly blond blue eyed people is a fantasy of nordicists. Many studies have shown that modern Greeks are indeed connected to ancient Greek..this does not discount that there probably has been admixture.

    But again why should Greece welcome anyone who sneek in?
    You all say you are not for a free for all and open borders.
    but in fact then what do you propose we do with this wave of people landing on our islands?

    I am not against having some immigrants in Greece but clearly the majority have said enough is enough.

    Again asylum seeekers are a different issue.

    But on all other migrants especially those who came here illegally they should be humanely repatriated unless their is some compelling reason in the interest of Greece to retain them…i.e, they are indeed employed in a field where there is no local persons who wish to work the jobs…of course there should be some system where employers actually advertize to the locals for job openings and hire them first over foreigners…but if no Greek is available or not enough then they should hire them.

    Anyone who broke in illegally that is not a true asylum seeker should not get the right to stay just because they claim or claim to be able to prove they have been around for a long time.

    A nation should be able to decide who it wants to welcome and whom it does not.

    I am not against Israel BTW..simply pointing out that while there are Arab Israeli citizens thats because those people were living there before 1948..they are not recent immigrants.

    in fact spouses of Jews have a difficult time becoming citizens.
    Israel does not welcome non-Jewish immigrants who will become citizens.

    Neither does Japan..hardly a backward society.

    In fact it is ONLY western countries that welcome such migrations.
    in the case of the USA maybe 30, 40 ,100 years ago its made sense but today all these countries have sizeable native populations.

    If an economy is growing, and has labor holes, then its only in its interest to bring in people.

    Otherwise, why invite or turn a blind eye to masses of people coming in to your country?

    Makes no sense. It has to be in the interest of the natives first and fore most. Otherwise immigration just for the sake of proving to whomever that your society is not racist is kind of silly. thats like dating someone of another race to prove your not racist.

    BTW most people have a sense of being Black, Asian, Japanese, Greek German whatever and it does not mean 100% purity alothough some claim that,..but just because all modern ethnic Greeks might not 100% be descended from ancient Greeks and Romans does not mean that they are not cosanguinous with each other to varying degrees and that they are a people that have a common heritage, culture and history they share that define them as a people distinct from other people who have their own heritage, culture, history, language etc.

    I do not agree that just because a Japanese or an African shows up inn Greece and learns Greek he is now Greek. Its not out of hate to point out that these people are not Greek it simply observing what our eyes see..these people come from somewhere else with a different culture heritage etc…which does not make them evil, or inferior or superior etc..it just means they are humans but from a different tribe if you will.

    Pointing out the obvious is not racist.

    and I am against racial and religious hatred as well.

    I wish Islam would stop being so hateful to Christians and converts to Christianity or people who want to leave Islam and be atheists, buddhst,etc.

    But thats not the case..

    So why should we lie to ourselves about Islamic cultures.

    They are not all the same but by and large they are not very tolerant towards their minorities and the attitude of that religion not every member but what is taught is that non Muslims are infidels.

    Its not like all these immigrants are all liberal minded people from liberal minded cultures.

    They believe in human rights and such lofty ideas of what their rights are when it comes to themselves but would they for example a Pakistani Muslim hold the same views to his minority Christian citizens..probably not.

    Summary:

    Just because you were born somewhere does not mean you deserve citizenship. Citizenship is not a right but a privelege.

    Who knows maybe tomorrow the UN will pass something that says that if you are born somewhere you will autoimatically become a citizen in that country…so what it would not make it right fair or just to impose that on the local native populations.

    Just ask the native americans what they think about mass immigration.

  26. Cyd
    October 24, 2009    

    Post Disagreement,

    You argue from the defensive. The other side knows what race means. They know that proximity of different peoples in the same living space has always led to conflict and misery. They know what mass immigration means to host societies. They know the “purity” angle is a red herring. They know all this and more. They are liars and soulless vermin and do not care if you and your family dies due to this little societal experiment they got going on. They have a whole list of newly minted “Greeks” to take over where your carcass will be decaying. You give them way too much respect.

  27. Xenos
    October 24, 2009    

    Post Disagreement: I do not claim to know what an Ancient Greek is, and quite frankly I think it is irrelevant. Modern Greeks are a complex mix of many different cultures over millennia, and genetically are the better for it.

    The issue with immigrants and jobs in Greece is very simple: Greece refused labour immigration in the 1980s, ended up with refugees and asylum-seekers from Poland, Vietnam and Turkey over that period, and it was only when Albania fell apart that mass immigration occurred. The fact is that jobs are not generally advertised in Greece, people’s relatives and friends are employed directly. The refugees and later the Albanians filled the poorly paid jobs that Greeks despise — hard factory work and poorly paid farming work in remote areas. That’s the history of modern immigration into Greece, and the state did nothing to manage it. As it still does nothing to manage it.

    So, you can talk about theoretical ideas as much as you like, but the situation will not be solved by pretending that Greece is a well-organised country.

  28. Cyd
    October 24, 2009    

    Modern Greeks are a complex mix of many different cultures over millennia, and genetically are the better for it.

    More verbal flatus from the Lout. Who needs evidence?!? Certainly not this idiot.

  29. Travlos Konstantinos
    October 24, 2009    

    “Maybe you can coin it and make a few bucks selling it to your friends of like mind.”

    really tell me the difference of the following:

    Traditionalist Jews rebelling against what they saw as the corruption of their culture by a alien ideology, Hellenism, and it’s local traitorous supporters Hellenized Jews.

    Traditionalists Greeks rebelling against what they see as the corruption of their culture by an alien ideology, liberal -capitalist -cosmopolitanism, and it’s local traitorous supporters Cosmopolitan Greeks.

    “not against Israel” of course not, Israel is following Greek policy in the 19th and early 20th century concerning non-national populations. Am I lying?
    “they are not recent immigrants” but a lot of them are, and came into Palestine in the 19th century.

    “If an economy is growing, and has labor holes, then its only in its interest to bring in people.” Which is the result of choosing liberal capitalism as an economic system. So instead of beating up immigrants, legal or illegal, why not start by actually giving Greece a economy of growth and not the ridiculous semi-feudal system we have now. Wait I minute last time I checked nationalist parties like semi-feudal, it is traditional.

    “But thats not the case..

    So why should we lie to ourselves about Islamic cultures.”

    Ah yes you wanted one predominant Muslim state that permits legal churches and pays money for them?

    Malaysia (60% Muslims and Islam state religion)

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Malaysia

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C…..n_Malaysia

    It is still hard to build them and discrimination exists, but you can build one if you really want to. No existing church has been closed down.

    Others were Christianity is legal and churches can be operated and built

    Indonesia (86.1% Muslim)

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R…..ristianity

    There are Islamic Terrorist groups that attack Christians, but they are enemies of the state.

    Bangladesh (88% Muslim)
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F…..Bangladesh

    the situation bears some resemblance to Greece when it comes to discrimination in jobs. But churches are permitted and you can build new ones.

    Uzbekistan possibly (88% Muslim)
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D…..Uzbekistan

    Yemen (99% Muslim)
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Yemen

    Syria (87% Muslim)
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_in_Syria

    Kazakhstan (62% Muslim)
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kazakhstan#Religion

    Mali (90% Muslim)
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Mali

    Tajikistan (98% muslim)
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F…..Tajikistan

    Maybe the Maldives (Predominantly Muslim)
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maldives

    That’s 8-9 predominantly Muslim states where you can built a church and Christians are generally treated well.

    Enough for you?

  30. Travlos Konstantinos
    October 24, 2009    

    PD

    On Islam, look at my post on the Mosque in Athens thread. You are wrong.

    As for “If an economy is growing, and has labor holes, then its only in its interest to bring in people.”

    Exactly! So instead of reforming the Greek economy to a liberal capitalist model that can guarantee growth and jobs for all, you would rather clamp on the migrants in order to keep your little piece of a failed semi-feudal economy. But then again Nationalists like traditional peasant semi-feudal societies.

    Cyd please tell me the difference between this two stories:

    Traditionalist Jews rebelling against what they see as the corruption of their culture by an alien foreign cultural import: Hellenism, and it’s local traitorous supporters Hellenized Jews, and the power of two great multiethnic powers, Seleucid Empire and Roman empire.

    Traditionalist Greeks rebelling against what they see as the corruption of their culture by an alien foreign cultural import: Liberal-Capitalist Cosmopolitanism, and it’s local traitorous supporters Cosmopolitan Greeks, and the power of two great multiethnic powers, the USA and International Banking.

  31. Travlos Konstantinos
    October 25, 2009    

    And one more thing. Greece was not founded on blood but on religion. If it was founded on blood, Turc-Cretes, and many of the Muslims send to Turkey in 1922 would never had been exchanged before ascertaining if they were Greeks that became Muslim in the Tourkokratia or non-Greek muslims. And Cappadochian Christians would never ever had been permitted to come into Greek. The possibility of them being descendants of ancient Greeks is nil as the older populations were exterminated by the Galatia invasions. To put it simply if your family went Muslim in the 14th century, even if it had the most pure pedigree going back to ancient greece you wouldn’t be Greek.

    And I would bet money PD’s acceptable migrants are Orthodox Slavs. If the Bulgarians hadn’t had there own nationalism in the 19th century, they too would had been called today Greeks.

  32. Post Disagreement
    October 25, 2009    

    Travolos

    We have no moral or ethical obligation to create jobs so that foreigners can come in and take them and settle amongst us.

    I would add that if we do need workers, we should get a say as to where they come from.

    You are creating a straw man.

    Greece needs economic reforms etc. I agree. but for the sake of the people that live there not for some future person who sneeks in.

    Japan created a dynamic economy and had no immigrants.

    The question to Travolos, Diva and Xenos (keeping in mind I am not referring to asylum seekers) is why are you opposed to basically the majority of the people who do not want so many immigrants in Greece. On the asylum issue you have some agreement with me although not 100%. but on economic migrants whats the deal?

    I am not saying kick out everybody but certainly the ones that are not anchored in the economy should be given a humanitarian repatriation to their homelands and then some should be given temporary work permits and so forth.

    But we certainly do not need any more immigrants.

    Would you disagree with the above statement..(Greece and its economy does not need any more immigrants)?

    What is so wrong with desiring that Greece retains its ethnic Greek majority and by a solid majority.. Most people want that for their home countries. Israelis and Japanese are no different. and btw many northern european countries natives feel the same way…i.e, they do not necessarily hate Moroccons, Turks etc..they just do not want to be swamped out and become a minority in their own land.

    In fact I read on a newsboard that Turkish Cypriots are upset that mainland Turks outnumber them in illegally occuppied northern cyprus. So there you have an example of two people groups that share something in common but yet the locals feel like they are being squeezed out.

  33. Post Disagreement
    October 25, 2009    

    and I am against racial and religious hatred as well.

    I wish Islam would stop being so hateful to Christians and converts to Christianity or people who want to leave Islam and be atheists, buddhst,etc.

    But thats not the case..

    ……………………………

    I am not sure what part about Islam you think I am wrong on…
    but it is a known fact just ask members of the council of exmuslims in britain that you can be executed for leaving Islam
    and many Christian minorities are treated like second class citizens.

    So how do expect people raised in that culture to be, liberals.
    i.e, yeah thats why most attacks on gays in the netherlands is by moroccan muslim youths.

    I guess the only way to be okay with you (Travolos, Xenos and Diva) is to say come one come all.

    Yes Greece needs many reforms, I am not blaming immigrants for the state of the economy, but simply pointing our we do not need any more and many that we have here are unemployed or underemployed and should be repatriated humanely and with incentives to do so.

  34. Post Disagreement
    October 25, 2009    

    Tavolos,

    even if it were the case that I think orthodox slavs might fit in better, what does that mean, what do you care, most Greeks probably agree with this view?

    So yeah if we absolutely need foreign workers why not people who are similar to majority in this culturual aspect of religion.

    Why search out people who are as different as possible..so we can pat ourselves on the back and say we are multicultural and antiracist. again the dating a black or asian to prove your not racist analogy applies here as a metaphor.

    Your mis characterizing.. my “thing” is not about being 100% pure Greek…its more about the modern Greeks (whatever they are an amalgum of)..saying hey enough is enough we have 10% plus demographic change we do not have the economy with all these jobs…so why do we need more people here?

    BTW I am well aware that there are Greek heritage people in Turkey who are Islamic, too bad Turkey does not acknowledge this and use this as a bridge of friendship between the two peoples..instead they are creating panic in the black sea area communities so that people of hellenic origins who are muslims and identify as turks give up their ancient Greek dialect.

    I do not think those people want to come to Greece anyway.

    But even if they did, if they showed themselves to be moderates and not psychos islamics perhaps it could b justified to say since they want to preserve their Greek language and ethnic identity they should be given some consideration.

    AGAIN YOU are the ones who are purposely mischaracterizing the conversation as we have only two choices (with nothing in between by the way..hegelian dialectic)

    1) Nazi style race purist vs
    2) Loving, Kind humanist who only want to be for human rights and help the downtrodden (i.e., open wide the borders, everybody who sneeked in gets to stay, etc.)

    the fact is there are such things as ethnicities and ethnic homelands. Thats why Greece is called Greece and not the South Eastern European archipelago/peninsula.

    Are Greeks 100% blood related to only ancient greeks probably not..so waht that does not mean i have to let fatima, habibi, and their 10 kids into Greece and if I do not I am a neo-nazi.

  35. Travlos Konstantinos
    October 25, 2009    

    There are at least 6 states predominantly Muslim (60% to 99% Muslim) where Christians can built churches fairly freely and Christians treated well

    Syria
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_in_Syria

    Maldives
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maldives

    Bangladesh
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R…..Bangladesh

    Mali
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Mali

    Tajikistan
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R…..Tajikistan

    Kazakhstan
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R…..Kazakhstan

    Obviously not all Muslims fit your nice box PD. I would say that most non-Arab Muslims don’t.

    When will all you Geert Wilder’s wake up to the fact that Islam is not just Arab?

    But pray tell, how are Russian lazy bum alcoholics and wife beaters any better?

    I agree with you as far as the need for a more rational immigration system. And as I have stated before 1st generation immigrants (those not born in Greece) shouldn’t be citizens (except if they were newborn-10 years old when they came). But I do believe that second generation immigrants should become citizens and I have proposed criteria in the past on this blog and DD knows them. And I think mine are more objective and fair then yours that are based on subjective views of what it means to be Greek or have greekness.

    And something more. You misunderstand what will happen if we clamp down. Now people want changes and reform. If all the immigrants are kicked out ,some existant jobs will be reshuffled to Greeks, and people will be satiated and stop demanding reforms. They will be volemenoi in the semi-feudal system and won’t give a f…k about economic growth.

  36. Travlos Konstantinos
    October 25, 2009    

    “Japan created a dynamic economy and had no immigrants.”

    And then that economy died under the weight of semi-feudla aggrements like Zaibatsu. The Japanese blew up the future of there children by only half-liberalising their economy.In Israel there is a debate over whether the border controls should be loosened for Palestinians, and tightened for crime producing Russian-Jews.

    I didn’t say a semi-feudal society can’t at some point show some economic growth. The SOviet Union did in the 1950s. But that growth is unsastainable and temporary. In Japan know they are debating what to do, and among thsoe debates is legallinzing the Korean migrants and opening the borders more.

    The problem I have is that your whole argument is predigated on the existance of a semi-feudal economic system. It is a proven fact hisotrically that as long as the economy goes well most people don’t give a damn about immigration. It is only when the economy is doing bad that such sentiments take hold. Greece needs liberal capitalsim that will give economic growth for all it’s children and many migrants. Not a reshuffling of a bunch of finite jobs from one group to the other as has always happened in semi-feudla and feudal societies.

    On Islam: Go and read my post on the Mosque topic. There are muslim majority countries like Bangladesh, Syria, Tajikistan, Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan and Mali where muslims and christians coexist in peace and tolearance. So you wanna be against Gulf-Arab culture be my quest. But don’t lump all muslims in with the Gulf Arabs.

    On the Russians

    So lazy, drunk, wife beater mafiosi are better then miltiant muslims.

    On Turkey and it’s non-Turkish muslims-> kinda like Greece and it’s muslims that don’t have the right to self-indetify. I agree nationalism is the same everywhere.

    “AGAIN YOU are the ones who are purposely mischaracterizing the conversation as we have only two choices (with nothing in between by the way..hegelian dialectic)

    1) Nazi style race purist vs
    2) Loving, Kind humanist who only want to be for human rights and help the downtrodden (i.e., open wide the borders, everybody who sneeked in gets to stay, etc.)”

    Really, go an find my post on my views on Immigrant reform. DD can testify if I am an open borders advocate. What I don’t support is subjective criteria on who becomes a Greek or not. I support objective and liberal criteria: Second Generation or 0-10 age when came to Greece, parent at least a resident for 10 years in Greece, no criminal code crime record for parents and possible citizen (not ptaismata, but karkougimata), 15-20 amount of years schooling in Greece, passing a language test, military serivce for boys and girls (If I was prime minister, [yes I know classical greek pun] I would extend miltiary service to girls. But no arbritary numbers and no arbirtary greekness tests.

    We are never going to see eye to eye becuase I think our moral upbringing is diametrically diffrent (of course Cyd and Xenos are on another planet, you and my on diffrent sides of a forest).

    “the fact is there are such things as ethnicities and ethnic homelands. Thats why Greece is called Greece and not the South Eastern European archipelago/peninsula.”

    The fact is this concept did not exist 250 years ago, and came about as a result of the expansion of a specific economic system, which in turn will make it impossible for this concept to exist in 100 or 250 years from now.

  37. Cyd
    October 25, 2009    

    Really Cyd. So you actually can trace your family back to ancient Greece? Wow! I can trace my family history back to the 10th century but even I had a hard time going back to ancient Greece.

    Wonder what method you used.

    Don’t read into my comments what is not there. What IS there is my derision of a faux “academic” who makes unfounded blanket statements and pretends they come right out of the gospel. How does he know 1) Greeks are complex mix of “many different cultures over millenia? Answer: he doesn’t. 2) How does he know Greeks are “genetically better for this”? Answer: he doesn’t. I’d be more than happy to peruse his “evidence” that warranted such claims though. I, unlike he, am open-minded.

    The Japanese blew up the future of there children by only half-liberalising their economy.

    The Japanese are a very tight, confident, bright, and hard working people with a rich history. Their 2 decade long recession/depression was due to corruption of the banking system which would have ended earlier if the Japanese had the will to do a thorough cleansing of the industry. Since they did not, the population lost all confidence in banking and this resulted in a stagnant economy. People still made good livings.

    In Japan know they are debating what to do, and among thsoe debates is legallinzing the Korean migrants and opening the borders more.

    Hahaha. The Japanese have been struggling with the option of allowing Koreans more rights and immigration opportunities. They struggled with allowing a people who are nearly identical to them. See how staunchly nationalistic they are? Currently, a Korean born in Japan is still Korean to them.

    It is a proven fact hisotrically that as long as the economy goes well most people don’t give a damn about immigration. It is only when the economy is doing bad that such sentiments take hold.

    Historically? How far back are you gauging this historic tolerance to immigration? Because as I understand it, immigration, unless it involved identical racial/ethnic peoples was at best tolerated. Not that people “did not give a damn”. People ALWAYS give a damn when they invite others into their living space. ALWAYS. They have to be tricked or coaxed into allowing it. Money usually is the best soother, hence why the west has allowed such a horrific amount of immigration thus far. It is thanks to our perceived new found “wealth”.

    Really, go an find my post on my views on Immigrant reform. DD can testify if I am an open borders advocate. What I don’t support is subjective criteria on who becomes a Greek or not. I support objective and liberal criteria: Second Generation or 0-10 age when came to Greece, parent at least a resident for 10 years in Greece, no criminal code crime record for parents and possible citizen (not ptaismata, but karkougimata), 15-20 amount of years schooling in Greece, passing a language test, military serivce for boys and girls (If I was prime minister, [yes I know classical greek pun] I would extend miltiary service to girls. But no arbritary numbers and no arbirtary greekness tests.

    This is abjectly silly. See the Japanese above. Use your criteria on them and then call yourself a Japanese. LOL Yes, the Japanese would be laughing as well because you or your offspring would NEVER, EVER, EVER be considered “Japanese”.

  38. Travlos Konstantinos
    October 25, 2009    

    Cyd let me explain you something. I don’t care what the Japanese do. I don’t what the Saudis do. I don’t care what Americans do. I don’t care what the Turks do. I only care what Greece does and what I do, and whether my acts and beliefs are consistent with my moral upbringing and my personal beliefs. As my mother used to tell me, if all the people of the world decide to jump of a wall are you going to jump as well?

    Now Cyd, since our moral upbringing is diametrically different, our beliefs about humanity fundamentally alien, and our hopes for it diametrically antithetical, not much point at trying to persuade each other at that level of argumentation.

    So we can only argue on the level of practical policy. I bet my system is more practical, and less costly and more efficient then your DPRK (North Korea) fortress one.

  39. CandyMan
    October 25, 2009    

    The thing that many of you Greek Scholars on this blog may miss is that soon the EU may force you to integrate the immigrants. When this happens, all these years of bad behavior by the Greeks will have galvanized into the psyche of the immigrants, and when they vote, they will vote for issues that help them and not Greeks. It happened in California when Americans mistreated Mexican immigrants, and now there is always legislation that favors giving illegal immigrants benefits, drivers licenses, and any other things under the sun. I can’t wonder if maybe the Americans could have treated the Mexican immigrants a bit nicer and their emotional response (voting against the mainstream American issues) would have had different results.

    Local Greeks take action. Drop your sour faces, the Lemon eating grins, and start smiling and being decent to each other and more importantly immigrants.

    Immigrants will be Greeks very soon whether you like it or not, and then you’ll see what power they have in Greece.

    Make it a point in your day to smile and speak nicely to the guy trying to clean your window on Alexandras; don’t cringe when a crusty Polish painter steps up next to you in the bakery. Don’t cut the line in the supermarket just because it’s an Albanian and who cares. PLEASE BE DECENT!

    And please don’t say that Greeks treat each other the same because althought YES, some Greeks are equal opporunity jerks, many (MORE) others target their jerkiness toward foreingers only. I know this for a fact, because I am a foreigner in Greece and see what your eyes do not.

    Again, ask California what power immigrants have when they are spurned.

  40. AntiMultiCulturalism
    October 25, 2009    

    Local Greeks take action. Drop your sour faces, the Lemon eating grins, and start smiling and being decent to each other and more importantly immigrants.

    You know that sounds like an advice I once heard about bullies “Don’t talk back to them. Keep your distance and you will be OK.” etc.
    Thank you for proving my point, CandyMan, that multicultural societies then to tear themselves apart.
    As for the EU “forcing” Greece to be multicultural, I wouldn’t be so sure. There is a change in the wind. The far-right becomes more and more influential (BNP,Lepen,LAOS etc).
    The White Europeans are waking up and smelling the foul odor of multiculturalism.

  41. Cyd
    October 25, 2009    

    You leftists with your faux moral superiority shtick. It certainly is grating because it is so untrue. You, and the Lout, do not have any idea on how I was raised and my moral upbringing though this does not stop you from trying to pigeonhole me. You see the here and now, though I see the past and the potential future. Your “sensitive” caring about people is nauseating because you lack the depth to realize it will lead to a tremendous backlash, as it always does, and this will result in death and destruction. You only care about what’s good in the immediate and what’s acceptable, not what are the ramifications of this major migration.

    As my mother used to tell me, if all the people of the world decide to jump of a wall are you going to jump as well?

    Gee Kosta, which one of us is jumping over the proverbial “wall”? You, who spout the current multicultural dogma and the US belief that money cures all ills or me who has views that are very no-PC?

    I bet my system is more practical, and less costly and more efficient then your DPRK (North Korea) fortress one.

    Cost, cost, cost. Spoken like a true capitalist slave (or whore), but you can fancy yourself moral and a humanitarian all you want. It really comes down to profit for the people who are making these decisions to move masses of people. It has nothing to do with your “morality”. That’s just the bullshit they feed you and you believe it.

    Another point of curiosity is, why North Korea, when we’ve discussed Japan? Hmm?

  42. Cyd
    October 25, 2009    

    Again, ask California what power immigrants have when they are spurned.

    Hear that, Kosta the Deaf? The anger and threat by your morally humanitarian pet project. The annexing of California for Mexico is nearly complete and they couldn’t give a fuck about your helping hand approach to their worthless plight. Hope it made someone some money though because then it would have been ALLLLL worth it!

  43. HOMELAND SECURITY
    October 25, 2009    

    some famous L.A. punkrock-bands with “mexicans” in: the plugz, the nuns, circle one, aggression, dr. know, suicidal tendencies,…
    btw there was also a movement for a californian state independent from U.S. in the eighties but that had nuthin to do with “mexicans”.
    If California would be annected that would be nice cuz then it would mean more power to the true owners of america, the indian tribes and nations, haha. remember: in 2005 the city of Boston ended a law that didn’t allowed Indians to come to Boston for 400 years.
    HOMELAND SECURITY
    fighting terrorism since 1492
    p.s.:
    anti-multi-culti-“cuts, burns and bruises” lead to pneumonia?
    there was a 2nd autopsy!

  44. Travlos Konstantinos
    October 25, 2009    

    Cyd

    Better a whore then a killer.

    “why North Korea, when we’ve discussed Japan? ”

    Because Japan is untenable. States either liberalize or sink back to feudalism.

    “very no-PC”

    Nice to see that the left has taught you something. Being against the trends is always very self-gratifying is it. But then again the “left” and the “right” have always been supporters of semi-feudal systems with there prattle about the collective.

    “It has nothing to do with your “morality””

    It has everything to do with my morality. Treat others as you would like them to treat you. I want people to give me a chance if I ever need to immigrate, I want to give people chance. Your little feudal system doesn’t.

    “You see the here and now, though I see the past and the potential future.”

    No I see the now and future, you see the past and future.

    “Again, ask California what power immigrants have when they are spurned.”

    You assume that is what is doomed to happen. destined to happen. See that is the difference between you and me, I don’t believe things happen. I believe people take actions that produce reactions. For example, supposedly Hindus and Muslims can’t live next to each other or mix! It is predetermined they say! A load of bull. They lived well enough under Akbar the Great (1556-1605). That moron Jahangir chose to destroy that peace (1605-1627). That is why I consider primordial nationalism a ridiculous ideology, because it canonizes choices and gives them the aura of inevitability. It makes humans slaves to destiny. I see that in your and less in PD’s arguments (And good old Edmund’s in the past). Not enough jobs for everyone! Not enough space! Wrong! It is the choices of humans that bring this situation about. If other choices are made they can mitigate or change them.

    So let me get some straight Cyd, you do not think in cost-benefit terms? You do things that 100% hurt you or go against your moral preferences and beliefs?

  45. Cyd
    October 25, 2009    

    Better a whore then a killer.

    But your side are killers, Kosta. Or haven’t you looked around to see the tens of millions of dead bodies your “altruism” has led to in the past?

    It has everything to do with my morality. Treat others as you would like them to treat you. I want people to give me a chance if I ever need to immigrate, I want to give people chance. Your little feudal system doesn’t.

    Of course it is ALL your idea and an extension of your morality. Of course. Just like it was the idea of all the individual followers of Jim Jones to behave erratically and eventually commit suicide.

    Then you bring up Akbar “the Great” (lol) as some sort of refutation to nationalism. An EMPEROR no less. Kosta, you are supposed to be educated and with that should come critical assessment of ideas. Your brainwashed idea of egalitarianism and following the Golden Rule is noble but untenable. Not Japan, but your failed ideology. Humans behave in a manner that increases their likelihood of survival. Your bullcrap failed ideology has led to disaster and death in EVERY SINGLE situation it was used in. Get around that nasty fact before you spout more of your nonsense.

    So let me get some straight Cyd, you do not think in cost-benefit terms? You do things that 100% hurt you or go against your moral preferences and beliefs?

    It really is disheartening to see such wanting logic in an academic student. I’d love to be in your class and take your stupid tests which involve answers either A or B. LOL!

    No, I do not do that 100% of the time as that would be quite stupid in the current atmosphere we find ourselves in. I do try my best to practice what I preach and do it more than most. If I were given a choice that world was “right thinking” again and all the wrongs of the last several decades reversed, though it would mean losing all my accumulated wealth, I would do it in a split second. Why? Because money is fleeting and is the least important of all things such as family, heritage, genetics, culture and nation. Why do you think Homeland Insecurity, above, is bleating on about Indian this and that? Because his tribe was decimated by “invaders” and you want ours to be given away. What has Greece become with all this altruism when it originated on the shoulders of giants? A bunch of bouzouki retards, whores that emulate Brittany Spears, and lazy pigs that look for a quick scam instead of hard work. That is why genetics and nationalism is important. That is why it is not wise to let in every single dreg into your house for a quick buck. Even if you think it is the “moral” thing to do.

  46. Moonshine Cola
    October 25, 2009    

    Blog readers, do you get tired of all the arguments between CYD, travlos, Post Disagreement, Oath Taken etc.

    If you are like me, it sure can make a guy want to have a drink. All these arguments make me thirsty!

    That’s why I drink “Moonshine Cola”. Moonshine cola makes all this fancy talk reading much more easily palatable. Just take a glass of your favorite cheap whiskey with a glass of cola and voila, “Moonshine Cola”.

    Now, back to the argment…

    Where were we?

  47. Travlos Konstantinos
    October 26, 2009    

    My side? My side? Oh wait I didn’t know I supported semi-feudal systems like national socialism or communism. The BNP,LAOS,Lepen and the Commies support such systems. The last time similar parties took power they killed between them 30-100 million people. Please tell me which liberal capitalist democratic state using free trade and the free movement of people and products, and not imperialism (Another nationalist ideology) has killed as many as the Nationalists, Communists and other collectivists and primordialists out there? Last time I remember it was a nationalist that killed Greeks in Asia Minor, not a classical liberal cosmopolitan.

    “Your bullcrap failed ideology has led to disaster and death in EVERY SINGLE situation it was used in. Get around that nasty fact before you spout more of your nonsense.”

    That is why the world is full of Japan’s eh? Your pure nations never existed. The only one is the DPRK-> pure DNA,hatred of all foreigners, pride in ones heritage, collectivist economic system, military service for all, no immigrants in it, all people sharing one nationalist ideology and working in pursuit of that-> Paradise for a nationalist.

    “I’d love to be in your class and take your stupid tests which involve answers either A or B. LOL! ”

    Well I know one question you would fail “What is the concept of rational choice?”

    You do make cost benefit decisions, you just said it, between money and your ideology you would sacrifice money, because you value ideology more. Rational choice theory has nothing to do with what your preferences are, but under an assumption of a set of preferences what choices you will make. So don’t go on the self-sacrifice bs. Under your preference structure ideology is more valued then money. Giving up money in the name of ideology is perfectly beneficial for you. The costs are less then the benefits.

    So D on that question.

    But hey you are right, the people of Europe want to give a try to the NSDP, CPSU, Facist, Ku Klux Klan etc. It is their right to make such a choice. But I don’t see why the end result will be different. And I will leave it at that.

    “Humans behave in a manner that increases their likelihood of survival.” Indeed and that is why they migrate and prefer to trade freely then obey your feudal restrictions.

    As the great Amartya Sen said ” No famine has ever existed in a liberal democracy”. Your systems Cyd were the norm for 10000 years when village,tribe and clan was the center, innovation the enemy, free trade evil, the free movement of people, ideas and goods prohibited, and foreigners the devil. It failed and died. Go on trying to resurrect it and killing more people in the process. I am done hijacking this post. I will read your reply but wont continue arguing here.

  48. Cyd
    October 26, 2009    

    What’s there to say? You cherry pick points and argue strawman arguments. You put words in my mouth and give childish rebuttals of the “either/or” type, including the last paragraph above. When you want to open your mind, maybe in about 10 years, let me know.

  49. Cyd
    October 26, 2009    

    Oh wait I didn’t know I supported semi-feudal systems like national socialism or communism.

    You do and that is your problem. You don’t even know it.

  50. Xenos
    October 28, 2009    

    Konstantine: you are wasting your time with some of these idiots here, like Cyd. They are bigots, with limited intellectual grasp, who claim superiority over those who know and think. The only thing they understand are personal insults (look at their style of debate): so I recommend that approach in dealing with them. It is a mistake to give credence to fascists and racists.

  51. Xenos
    October 29, 2009    

    Aleph: apart from your incorrect statements, I should point out that Chryssi Avgi supporters are not welcome here.

LEAVE A COMMENT HERE