The only thing necessary for the persistence of evil is for enough good people to do nothing

A Mosque in Athens ?

Via the Balkan Travellers

Thousands of Muslims in Athens appealed for the construction of a mosque to Greece’s new government in the framework of the international congress dedicated to Muslim communities and their cultural identity.

The congress took place for the first time in the country, the national Ta Nea newspaper reported today.

Athens is the only European capital, which has neither a mosque nor a cemetery for Muslims, the representative of the Afghan Muslims residing in Greece told the publication.

He added that, for the time being, Muslims in Athens are forced to pray in improvised “mosques,” such as garages, basements and apartments.

I have posted on this issue many times here. As per usual, nothing has progressed. I sincerely hope that the new government will sieze the opportunity to put this right. I’m not holding my breath…

Read the full article here

Technorati Tags: , , , ,

42 Comments

  1. Post Disagreement
    October 9, 2009    

    I think they should be allowed to have mosques but they do not need to be huge edifices either.. They should have just legalized those storefront type informal mosques.

    But one does ask one self excuse us if we do not cry too much over this, considering that I do not know of too many muslim countries where one can open up a church, synagogue, mormon temple, atheists center, etc.

    i.e, we are being asked to be tolerant to a largely intolerant culture compared to well just about all other cultures, general speaking.

  2. October 9, 2009    

    I once wrote to both the Kathimerini (English edition) and the Athens News suggesting that the old mosque in the middle of the Plaka across from the Monastiraki Metro station be re-instated as a mosque.

    At the moment, it houses a very boring ceramics museum having been a mosque during the time of the Ottoman Empire.

    Needless to say, no one responded. It would be nice if someone responded,once in a while.

  3. Post Disagreement
    October 10, 2009    

    you need to forward your suggestion to the church, as we all know the orthodox church has the final say, rightly or wrongly.
    and perhaps the ministry of culture or someone official not a newspaper.

  4. Jack Handy
    October 10, 2009    

    Post Disagreement, when you say that Muslim Countries don’t allow other churches etc. You forget that one of the biggest Christian Church is in Istanbul, is it Ag. Sofia? (i think). The Turks obviously are very understanding of other religions to create a Christian Church for their non-muslim citizens.

  5. Xenos
    October 10, 2009    

    It is an obscenity and imcompatible with European legal obligations that the Orthodox Church of Greece is even consulted about other religions (let alone has the last say). Until Greeks deal with this shit, nothing will get better.

    Aghia Sofia dates back to when Constantinople was essentially Greek, so does not indicate any tolerance, Jack. If anything, the Turks are even worse than the Greeks with these issues.

    Athens needs a lot of mosques, because the different branches of Islam cannot be asked to meet in the same mosque. There is also the fact that there should be many for simple travel and geographical reasons. This problem with the Saudi funding arose out of the ignorant idea (which I recall Papandreou promoted) that Athens needed one wonderful mosque in Paiania for the Olympic Games. This, despite the fact that there are almost no Muslims at all in Paiania!! Obviously, and correctly, the citizens of the town blocked the stupid idea.

    Really, Greeks need to just grow up and accept that modern European countries have multiple subcultures and religions, and break away from their state and church controlling mentality. It doesn’t work anyway, Greece is the most anarchic country in all of Europe.

  6. October 10, 2009    

    @Jack –

    Agia Sofia was there before the Ottoman Empire, it was built when the city was Christian and called Constantinople. And I believe that the Turks not only desecrated the interior of the church by removing many icons and paintings but that it was also made into a mosque.

    @Xenos –

    While your points are valid, there is also reality. And then there is this: one must go to where people are in order to lead them to where one thinks/believes/wants them to go.

  7. Xenos
    October 10, 2009    

    Amaliada: no disagreements from me. I should also point out that even with something as basic as giving out licences to broadcast TV (as Greece was obliged to do in the 1990s, by the EU which forbids state monopolies of the sort that Greece loves), they managed to fuck it up. Stll, in 2009, they have not allocated the actual frequencies to broadcast on, so technically almost all non-state TV channels are illegal.

    What should happen is that licences for mosques be granted easily, subject to a few critera. These might include:

    (1) suitable location (that it doesn’t disturb neighbours excessively;
    (2) official oversight of the management of the mosque (to avoid extremist Islam, as has happened in some UK mosques)
    (3) recorded membership levels within the locale (but not names) to justify the need for a local mosque.

    All of these things, from European experiences, are obvious. But Greece still cannot sort out private colleges (which require the same sort of management). Every area where the state cannot control absolutely, which is most areas, they leave to illegal/semi-legal and anarchic civil society organisation. In the state sector, of course, they hand out jobs to their friends and relatives on a non-meritocratic basis, fake the evidence, and send the bill to the taxpayers.

    The Greek state is a failed state, and a disgrace. Let’s see if Pasok do any better this time around: there’s not much hope, though.

  8. Amaliada
    October 12, 2009    

    But the reality, is that 1) tourists wouldn’t notice and 2) those that did would have the feeling that Greece is a much more enlightened country than it is.

    It is too bad the country won’t take a risk and join the world. I was watching a program on Switzerland and how they’ve integrated all of the various populations that have been coming to the country since the 1960s.

    I think that because Greece was “isolated” (not really in the usual sense, the country just didn’t have the foreign populations of the rest of Europe) until the late 1990s, the population mostly remembers how it was and, like America (I’m American) pre-Obama, wants to go back to the myth.

    I’m sure that life wasn’t perfect here, but it was a known quantity and the thing about change is that it is full of the unknown. And everyone is scared of the unknown. The question is one of degree and how one handles it.

  9. Brazilian
    October 12, 2009    

    I agree with Amalida, here in Brazil we have white bralians, black brazilians, ornamental (Asian) brazilians etc and we all speak Portuguese. Also the America, France and other progressive countries realize citizenship based on location is the most fairest. Greece, open the Mosque next to Akrapolis or Greek parliament and shows the people you are worldly and realize being Greek no longer means by Blood. That is so YESTERDAY

  10. Xenos
    October 12, 2009    

    Considering that for many centuries Plaka was predominantly Muslim and filled with mosques, I cannot agree that a working mosque in Plaka “would give the wrong impression”. What is the wrong impression is that all of the mosques in Greece (and there were a lot) have been converted to other uses, and Greece denies its own Islamic history. This fraud has been perpetrated for so long that Greeks actually believe their own nationalistic propaganda.

  11. Travlos Konstantinos
    October 13, 2009    

    Well Xenos history, objective or not, is a very hard beast to put down. Especially when that history is the only thing that many people consider as legitimizing their existence as a independent society. The crude stereotype is Greeks close mosques-Turks close churches. I am not saying it is right, but it is their and you have to either right it or circumvent it. Again as I have said while Greece’s Islamic history is not as dark as the official history presents it, it is not as benign as you think it is. And that history is crucial to the “national” identity of Greece. So you need to be careful how you deal with it. I am all for getting over it but I am not dictator of Greece. So my or yours thought by itself is not enough. You need to present a viable alternative historical narrative that still legitimizes an autonomous societal existence.

    Amaliada-> while I appreciate the importance of Obama’s victory I am not seeing a lot of change on the ground to say pre-Obama vs. post-Obama.

    Brazilian-> crucial point you all speak the same language. Also last time I checked Brazil had it own racial problems, tied to poverty of course.

  12. Travlos Konstantinos
    October 13, 2009    

    Don’t get me wrong, I have been supportive of a Mosque in Athens for a long time (devolved of course from any Saudi or Turkish influence.)

    And a Mosque can be made, and probably will be made. But for it to be accepted (which is in the end the required result for societal progression) you need to provide a new historical narrative that can do all of the following:

    a) Legitimise the muslim presense in Greek history

    b) without delegitimising the Greek Revolution and the 188 years of independent Greek existence.

    c) without delegitimising the autnomous cultural existence of the Greek people.

    Xenos frankly the hisotrical narrative you have offered glimpses of doesn’t do this. If you all think people will just deny the legitimacy of their collective existence and collective past just to be modern, then you are on shaky grounds.

  13. Xenos
    October 13, 2009    

    Konstantine: with the propaganda being taught in Greek schools, the dismal standards of Greek tv, the re-emergence of LAOS and right wing extremism… I expect nothing of Greeks.

    It is not my job to write a narrative of Greece and its ethnic history: much of the current nationalist propaganda comes from British and French nonsenses in the 19th century. It is up to Greeks to learn about the past of this region, how economically backward and underpopulated Athens was before the Revolution and who actually lived here. Greeks might also learn about how the mosques which dominated much of the landscape were used, e.g. for the first Parliament. My complaint is that Greek “history” is completely falsified, rather than shaped to make a coherent narrative, as you put it.

    A starting point would be for Greece to conform to EU standards on minorities, and just shut the fuck up about the terrible Muslims (Ottomans).

  14. October 13, 2009    

    Thank you all for your very interesting insights on this issue.

    I cannot even pretend to understand the historical resistance to a mosque in Athens these days but I do appreciate the insecurity or fear that the Greek population feels given its history.

    I also fully and whole-heartedly support building a NEW mosque in the city rather than trying to re-open the old one in Monistiraki. NOT because I believe that would be wrong (quite the contrary actually) but because I believe that that will never happen. And it’s better to have a new building than no building at all.

    I can no more ask Greece to forget its history than I can any other country including my own. Our “collective momeory” of the second world war (and many other conflicts in our history) and really does affect our pyche. It has taken a huge amount of effort and work to recover.

    But it is 2009. And it is wrong (and dangerous) to deny people their rights. We have the ability to remember our history without trampling on other people. Our more recent history has much to teach us too. We have the abilty to learn from that too. Unfortunately, we do tend to dwell on the past and give in to resentments and negativity. On a small scale, in our personal relationships and on a wide scale, as countries against each other.

    Maybe it’s simplistic and naive to say this but… if we are having problems in our relationshiops, we look to others (friends, family etc) for help. Some seek professional advice and support. I have always advocating countries looking at what has worked/hasn’t wowrked in other places and taking the BEST from each to improve itself without allowing history to stand in the way.

    Why not take the Swedish model of looking after its citizens, the German or Dutch models of striving for environmental change etc. They may not be perfect but better than most of us are doing.

    Having no mosque in Athens is causing resentment and anger in the Muslim community here. Its time to put aside history (without disrespect) and get on with the 21st century. Building positive and productive relationships between communities. Working towards peace rather than struggle and turmoil.

    btw: thank you for keeping this discussion civilised.

  15. Travlos Konstantinos
    October 13, 2009    

    DD the problem is that you can get a Mosque. And indeed a Mosque should be created, if the Monastiraki cannot then a new one somewhere else. But people will not accept it. Xenos and sometimes you forget that people hate justice when they feel that it is imposed on them. Ultimately this will have to be done. But by itself a Mosque will not solve the Greek-immigrant problem. That requires a very careful managing of collective history. Not the type that they tried to do with the Asia Minor campaign were the massacre at Smyrna (Izmir) was turned into a matter of congestion. I would love to be wrong, but I think that a lot of the people who see Greek historiography as a problem offer such naive solutions.

    The German-France case is a useful one, but we still need to wait and see if Turkey’s transition to full democracy will be completed. Once the Turk (and conversely the Greek in Turkish history) is rehabilitated then so will the Muslim. I am not saying that this is fair, for what do Pakistanis and Iraqis and Afghans have to do with Turks, but the reality is that in the Greek historical narrative Muslim=Turk=enemy. Modern history is no succor from that DD as Greek-Turkish modern history, except for the period 1924-1954, is not one of friendly relations.

    What I am saying is that a Mosque by itself (especially if people feel it is imposed) will not solve the Greek-immigrant divide. It will solve some problems immigrants face, and it is the just thing to do, but it might make things worse if not accompanied by a debate over the historical narrative (good thing I guess from an immigrant point of view, about it is that such a debate will turn all Greek views away from immigrants to our national sport-> fighting each other)

  16. Xenos
    October 13, 2009    

    Sadly, I think that the only way in which Greece will ever see an honest justice system is if it is imposed on them. The modern historical record is all too clear: Greeks favour corruption, cronyism and nepotism. Little has been achieved internally towards social justice, legal justice and accountable governance. Greek politics and economy are dominated by a few families.

    Nor is the record of imposed justice so poor. Think of West Germany and its 1949 Basic Law: this is a big success story, where the Allies imposed a better constitutional and political framework than exists in the UK, USA and elsewhere. So, sorry, Greeks need to have justice imposed on them: it’s not going to happen otherwise.

  17. Travlos Konstantinos
    October 14, 2009    

    Well as I was saying to an American over another controversy, if you don’t have an army up your sleeve, then the whole impose progress shtick is kinda a dead end. Now then Xenos, do you actually have an army under your sleeve? And if yes how much does it cost to rent it :)

  18. Xenos
    October 14, 2009    

    Greece is already in danger of being kicked out of the Euro for its fraudulent accounts and illegal borrowing. The fiscal transfers to Greece have been the sole mainstay of both political parties since the late 1980s (although there is considerable evidence that international money-laundering is also important).

    Let’s see how Greeks survive by working and competing in the real world, if they don’t accept European values and laws. Bulgaria has had all funding stopped for not dealing with organised crime: it’s time for Greece to get the same treatment. Pasok will go crawling to Brussels and will do just about anything to escape that catastrophe, which would spell the immediate demise of the Papandreou government.

  19. Oath Taken
    October 16, 2009    

    EDITED BY DEVIOUS DIVA TO REMOVE PERSONAL INFORMATION

    Nor is the record of imposed justice so poor. Think of West Germany and its 1949 Basic Law: this is a big success story, where the Allies imposed a better constitutional and political framework than exists in the UK, USA and elsewhere. So, sorry, Greeks need to have justice imposed on them: it’s not going to happen otherwise.

    While the good Allies are busily imposing justice I’m sure they will not forget the people that paved the way for them: You know the people that have been suffering since 1995 after forcing themselves to live in Greece (a land where all the Greeks do, is lie and steal) in order to civilize and bring the gifts of the bourgeoisie to the bloody peasants! The people that are so frustrated by having the voluminous output of their think-tank/research-center being ignored by the peasantry posing as ministers that they vent their anger anonymously on a daily basis on blogs…

    I’m sure the new authorities would treat you much differently Xenos, come to think of it, I’ve been wondering, when the time of imposed justice comes, whether we’d get a home-grown new Tsolakoglou. A certain son of a junta minister would come to mind as a front-runner but I now realize we’ve already found our new gauleiter in the world-renowned and highly esteemed academic commentator in DD’s blog.

    When the time comes I can only wish you the success in civilizing the terminally peasant Romii that Otto’s Bavarians in the 19th century and your own British compatriots in the 1940s failed to have. Who knows – maybe 3rd time (I do not count the partial occupation of Northern Greece in WWI in the above) will be a charm. In any case, the will to resist that the people of Mani showed the Bavarians is gone from us these days – instead of treating people like yourself in the manner they treated the Bavarian troops sent to “civilize” them we interpret being spat in the face as a compliment. We deserve to be “Europeanized” by you.

  20. Travlos Konstantinos
    October 17, 2009    

    Xenos Greece is not going to be kicked out of the EU. The only institution in the EU that can do that is the Council of the European Members(European Council). A institution made up of member states and operating on political not judicial norms. Xenos there are no political reasons for the other EU states to kick out Greece, and the other EU states do not give a real damn about immigrants. So Greece is not going to be kicked out of the Euro, or the EU.

  21. Xenos
    October 18, 2009    

    There is no mechanism, save the original Rome Treaty obligation for a country to be a democracy, by which a Member State can be removed from the EU. For the Eurozone, however, there is a mechanism which is almost an obligation and Greece is in very great danger of being removed from the Eurozone.

  22. Post Disagreement
    October 18, 2009    

    The Euro is an evil idea. One central bank having so much power.
    absolute power, corrupts absolutely.

    Each nation should print and lend its own money from a publicly owned bank.

    The international banking system in fact is the cause of a lot of evil in this world.

  23. October 21, 2009    

    Can I remind you all once again not to divulge personal details about any commentators here. You may know or think you know who people are but I do not appreciate “outing” people. It is vindictive at best and downright dangerous at worst. It happened to me personally and I know what threats against me and my family feels like. You may think it’s a joke but there are some very unsavoury people out there that are following this blog and I do not wish to provide them with ammunition to attack ANYONE who dares to comment here, either here or on their own blogs (or in the worst case scenario, in real life) Please stop.

    And enough of the ridulous name-calling (deleted) and back to the topic.

    How do people feel about Athenian GREEK muslims wanting a place to practice their faith ? Is that different ? I personally beleive there should be a mosque in this European capital for the use of all Muslims but I am wondering if the stumbling block is because of the “immigrant Muslims” or the religion itself? Or a combination of both. I am interested in your thoughts…

  24. Xenos
    October 21, 2009    

    There is a large contingent of Greek Muslims who are originally from Thraki, living in North-West Athens. They also have no access to legal mosques or proper funeral provisions. The response of the Greek state is to say that there are Greek Muslims only in Thraki, as provided by the Lausanne Treaty. If they migrate within Greece, they lose their rights.

    Tells you something, doesn’t it…

  25. Oath Taken
    October 21, 2009    

    Diva I took care not to mention Xenos’ research center (the mention of the existence of which you forgot to delete – adds to the aura of authority I guess) and of course not his name either. I guess someone smart enough to Google for the publication mentioned could find out more information but you chose to delete not just that but everything around it including the embarrassing details of his errors (which are but a subset of the errors in that 17-page introduction). Speaks volumes of what you consider as “protection”. Here you have a commentator that has made his academic expertise central to his comments and you just made clear that any challenge to parts of his argumentation that go beyond his immediate area of research and into issues of history is not to be tolerated. He is given a free hand to proclaim his authority (that the “peasants” will not recognize). Essentially his propaganda is to be considered off-limits. Congratulations – you’ve proved your utility to the gauleiter to be.

    For what it’s worth, a person that suggests that what Greece requires is “imposition of justice” via foreign occupation (as his comments about the occupation of Germany by the Allies make clear) deserves all the vitriol he receives. That extends to people that support him while pretending to be caring for the land and its people.

    For what it’s worth, the Muslims of Athens, both internal migrants from Thrace and external immigrants should have access to different mosques, according to the form of Islam they practice and their bodies should not have to be driven to Thrace for funeral provisions. Both mosques and cemeteries should be registered with and properly authorized by the local government bodies (and the central government should make it clear that discrimination should not be tolerated).

    At the same time the cost of building and running places of worship should not be carried by the government (or by foreign governments for that matter other than the case reasonable donations with NO STRINGS attached). It should be up to the immigrants to gather the funds to build and run their place of worship just like it happens with Greek immigrants in the USA for example. Security issues with radical preachers can be handled the obvious way – only preachers from the rest of Europe should be allowed and ??? will have to monitor such places of worship and any objections from the usual rabble rousers should be ignored. The sound pollution restrictions put on churches should apply equally well on them as well (and I do not give a rat’s ass if people like yourself would label that as discriminatory).

    As for cemeteries it makes sense that people that pay (their indirect) taxes that fund their local municipality should be entitled to the same funeral opportunities that the other locals are entitled to: a 3 year stint in the cemetery followed by exhumation and either paid-for (on a yearly basis) storage of the bones or their grinding to fine dust. The excuse that Islam does not allow for exhuming is irrelevant – the fact that the dead people are Muslims does not entitle them to more rights than the others. If they want a permanent burial place then they will have to do the same as the rest of us – pony up and pay the exorbitant price to buy a grave (and pay the fee for it henceforth). Otherwise they can get shipped to Western Thrace or their countries of origin where the rules are different. I’m sure this is one complication that you had not even considered but that is nothing new.

    It goes without saying that the opportunity of cremation (not relevant to Muslims btw.) should be offered immediately to all inhabitants of Greece. Of course the church is free to instruct all priests to avoid cremation ceremonies – that is their right.

  26. Xenos
    October 21, 2009    

    Oath: you are an anonymous person here who chooses to criticise published work, and DD is right to delete it. If you wish to make your (incorrect) comments in your own published work, feel free to do so.

    There are no mosques in Athens, so what you have written above is false. The Greek Muslims in Athens do not have mosques. Why are you trying to conceal that fact? And the idea that there is a problem with noise pollution from mosques, when Athens is one illegal noise zone (including Greek church bells) is unacceptable.

    You see, basically, Greeks are not prepared for anyone other than (some privileged) Greeks to have rights. That’s why it has to be imposed: your culture is intolerant and corrupted.

  27. Oath Taken
    October 21, 2009    

    And just in case you choose to misinterpret the part about “vitriol” it clearly refers to plenty of doses of sarcasm on your blog – not to threats by shaven-head idiots to your family or you personally which are reprehensible. In fact if someone does that I suggest you contact the police and pursue them legally.

  28. Oath Taken
    October 21, 2009    

    Xenos learn to read: I wrote “should” everywhere. I’m well aware of the current awful situation and I wrote what I believe should be the change in policies. Nowhere did I try to conceal anything.

    Having been to Western Thrace I can guarantee you that mosques can be a source of noise pollution. Church bells as well. There are plenty of court decisions against churches that have forced them to limit their noise pollution – of course if in an area close to a church no atheist lives to lodge a complaint the noise continues.

    As for your errors I’ve corrected you several times in this very blog – and the errors I pointed out regarding the Arvanites in the introduction are so fucking plainly obvious you should be ashamed to have put your name under them. I publish in the hard sciences where peer review is much stricter.

    As for the imposition please oblige us herr gauleiter. When is the invasion starting?

  29. Xenos
    October 21, 2009    

    Oath: you are an idiot. You think that peer review is something that solves problems of faulty sources, but it doesn’t. “Hard sciences” my ass: you people cannot cope with the complexity of human behaviour. Everything that I write is carefully sourced (even if it is not explicitly referenced). If you disagree with factual information in my publications, it is because you disagree with the sources of those facts and not with me. I do not make up facts.

    Regarding my comment on “should”: I interpreted it as a different usage (meaning “this is theoretically the case”). I apologise for the confusion, and accept that you were not trying to mislead.

  30. October 21, 2009    

    @Oath Taken
    I simply deleted the information that refers to place of work and I will also delete real names and any other information that might lead to someone being “outed”. I am not interested in siding with anyone in particular. My concern is for safety in general. It’s too bad that you see this as underhand or backing someone you disagree with. I also disagree with some of what xenos says. And many others who have commented over the last 4 years.

    I do not know much about xenos or the research you refer to. Yes, anyone who really wants to can find quite a few people here. Mistakes have happened in the past where people have posted under their real names etc. But let’s not make it easier for people.

    If ANYONE feels uncomfortable about information divulged here, I will do my best to delete or edit. As I’ve said loads of times, I’m not here everyday (especially at the moment) so apologies for any delays or oversights.

    I have been in contact with a lawyer and the police for past incidents and all comments are saved locally on my computer with IP addresses. I got some very good advise a few years ago because of this very same issue. Thank you for your concern.

  31. Xenos
    October 22, 2009    

    Well, not really… Where will the land for the cemetery and related facilities come from? And the money for cremation facilities?

    The thing is that one mosque is a terrible idea: the different branches of Islam need different mosques. It is just asking for trouble to pack them all into one building.

    The obvious solution is that most of the illegal mosques are allowed to operate legally, maybe with some changes or restrictions. Of course, the Orthodox Church will not allow it, seeing as Greece is still part of the Byzantine Empire and not a member of the European Union or the Council of Europe.

  32. Travlos Konstantinos
    October 22, 2009    

    Well according to the article the Church was willing to give the cemetery land. Facilities should be paid for by the faithful, which will reinforce the rise of community organizations free from the influence of the state and mayhaps help promote a separation fo church and state at some point.

    Really Xenos Byzantium..> Well then who is Emperor, I have some rights on that throne and would like to attempt to take it. Yes Konstantinos XIII Travlos, Basileus Romaion, Autokrator, Pontifix Maximus. Sounds Nice!

  33. Xenos
    October 22, 2009    

    Ahh, OK: I forgot that part about the Church offering land. Maybe, then…

    The Byzantine Empire but without an Emperor is how Greece operates. That’s why it’s such a mess. Good luck in bidding for the throne!

  34. Post Disagreement
    October 23, 2009    

    I think its Ironic that their is this outcry about the lack of official mosques in Greece for immigrants..when one can not name one majority muslim country that would allow the opening of legal churches, where Christian temporary workers lts say from the philippines in saudi arabia can go worship.

    Anyway since they have “illegal” mosques they might as well legalize them ( and of course monitor them for extremist rhetoric and propaganda ).

  35. Travlos Konstantinos
    October 23, 2009    

    Hey PD, who gives a fig what others do. This is about what we do. The whole Middle East can go commit mass suicide. Wanna follow.

    Ah yes you wanted one predominant Muslim state that permits legal churches and pays money for them?

    Malaysia (60% Muslims and Islam state religion)

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Malaysia

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_in_Malaysia

    It is still hard to build them and discrimination exists, but you can build one if you really want to. No existing church has been closed down.

    Others were Christianity is legal and churches can be operated and built

    Indonesia (86.1% Muslim)

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Indonesia#Christianity

    There are Islamic Terrorist groups that attack Christians, but they are enemies of the state.

    Bangladesh (88% Muslim)
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_religion_in_Bangladesh

    the situation bears some resemblance to Greece when it comes to discrimination in jobs. But churches are permitted and you can build new ones.

    Uzbekistan possibly (88% Muslim)
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Uzbekistan

    Yemen (99% Muslim)
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Yemen

    Syria (87% Muslim)
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_in_Syria

    Kazakhstan (62% Muslim)
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kazakhstan#Religion

    Mali (90% Muslim)
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Mali

    Tajikistan (98% muslim)
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_religion_in_Tajikistan

    Maybe the Maldives (Predominantly Muslim)
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maldives

    That’s 8-9 predominantly Muslim states where you can built a church.

  36. Travlos Konstantinos
    October 23, 2009    

    PD? are you seriously saying that we should do what others do? This is about Greece and what we do in Greece. Not frakking Saudi Arabia.

    As for the second. In political science before we make a necessary variable argument, we make sure we run a existence test.

    There are at least 7 states predominantly Muslim (60% to 99% Muslim) where Christians can built churches fairly freely

    Syria
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_in_Syria

    Maldives
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maldives

    Bangladesh
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Bangladesh

    Mali
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Mali

    Tajikistan
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Tajikistan

    Kazakhstan
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Kazakhstan

    Indonesia
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Indonesia

    So your necessary condition (majority Muslim) does not always lead to your independent variable (prosecution of Christians).

    When will all you Geert Wilder’s wake up to the fact that Islam is not just Arab?

  37. Gus
    January 14, 2010    

    Hey jack that’s actually a mosque that your talking about. Get your facts straight. When they put up a Church in Saudi Arabia then we can talk about a Mosque in Athens.

  38. thaer
    January 16, 2010    

    well when they start putting a mosque in the Vatican . now we can start talking on church in Saudi Arabia . I live in Heliopolis and I’m surrounded by 5 churches in less than 1km square …. What the fuck is that … and 200 000 Muslim are not allowed to have one mosque … well i believe that middle eastern countries with Christians population should stop building churches at all and let see . Moreover, most of the holy places for Christians are also in our land ,, we should stop allowing all Europeans from entering them as well this will be fare,.

  39. Georgy
    November 1, 2010    

    The home of islam Saudi Arabia bans Christianity. Most Muslims in Athens came in illegally they were never invited. As a good will gesture will Turkey open up Agia Sophia as a church in Costantinople? Unfortunately the Greek leaders are gutless to raise these issues with local Muslim leaders in Athens. If I were PM I would have deported all of the Muslems back to where they came from. Islam is inferior to Christianity.

  40. Post Disagreement
    November 2, 2010    

    Gregory I agree with you except it makes no sense since there are only 2 to 3 thousand Greeks left in Turkey mostly elderly people.

    What makes sense is to point this fact out and say to our Muslims friends…listen there are barely any Greeks left in Turkey and Egypt so shut up. The fact that we let so many exist on our land at all while we can not live in peace in their nations (actually part of our ancient homelands) is the height of hypocrisy..

    WHile its true many Muslims are fine people on an individual level Islam as a religion and Arabs and Turks and Somalis and Afghanis are not the majority / founding ethnic / culture of our European nations and we have no obligation to be flooded and outbred in our own land by outsiders.

    We are way past the point of letting in a humanitarian amount of people that would not affect local demographics.. Every European nation’s native population is being threatened with being swamped out in this next century down to minority status.

    Although this is a gleeful predictions by the likes of the EJC and others that detest majority native European cultures and want them multiculturalized for easier control we must continue to expose this and respond to this anti European anti Hellenic hate even if they call us the dreaded R or A word.

    And point the mirror back at them and ask them to multiculturalize Nigeria, Japan, Saudi Arabia, Turkey, ISRAEL and everywhere else first…Europe has let in plenty of people.

  41. Post Disagreement
    November 2, 2010    

    Travlos Konstantinos:

    PD? are you seriously saying that we should do what others do? This is about Greece and what we do in Greece. Not frakking Saudi Arabia.

    “the point is not so much the mosque..the point is if we had control of our borders and deported illegal aliens and punished those who hire them severely there would be no “need” for more mosques”

    Anyway this is not a serious issue as noted there are plenty of unofficial mosques.

    Furthermore, Islam overall is intolerant to non Muslims or at best views them as dhimmis.
    look up what that word means.

    Question is why are we Greeks being demonized for wanting to maintain our nation as majority Greek ethnically and culturally. Thats natural any group that has a will to live and survive does not welcome waves of unassimilatable foreigners

  42. Post Disagreement
    November 2, 2010    

    XENOS:

    You see, basically, Greeks are not prepared for anyone other than (some privileged) Greeks to have rights. That’s why it has to be imposed: your culture is intolerant and corrupted.

    ::::::::::

    typical fascism from the left. If our culture is intolerant and corrupted simple..they do not have to come here.

    We are not talking about native minorities here.
    and guess what you can leave too.
    You hate us, leave

LEAVE A COMMENT HERE