The only thing necessary for the persistence of evil is for enough good people to do nothing

Are Greeks Racist

Via Athens Plus

Are Greeks racist?

It’s a simple question but it does not have a simple answer. Twenty years ago, when Greece was a monolithic society, in which 97 percent of the population called itself both Greek and Orthodox, the question would have been met with a unanimous “No!” That was before a million foreigners poured into the country. The immigrants, whether from Albania or Somalia, were something very new and very different in Greek society. Most people accepted their new neighbors, helping them out as much as they could. Others were alarmed. Because of inadequate and arbitrary policing in mixed neighborhoods, tensions grew. At some point, xenophobia, stoked by a sensationalist press, raised its ugly head in the land of philoxenia. Fortunately, the worst seems to be over with regard to general opinion, but state indifference and a hard core of right-wing thugs and hooligans means that we cannot drop our guard.

Whereas on a personal level the vast majority of Greeks are reasonably tolerant and easygoing (albeit often with a lack of sensitivity arising from a sense that what they say or do remains a family secret) it is on the institutional level that they have been inexcusably lax and irresponsible. From the beginning of the immigration tide in 1990, nothing was done to allow people to get residence and work permits until 1997. This meant that every immigrant was, by definition, illegal, even as foreign workers saved Greek agriculture and, moving into our homes, allowed both parents to work and the sick and elderly to receive care at home rather than in the woefully inadequate hospitals and old-age homes. This created a climate of insecurity and allowed the cruel exploitation of people who had no rights. When legalization began, grumpy, unskilled and uncaring bureaucrats subjected migrants to a myriad of arbitrary cruelties and pettiness, acting as if the suppliants were an inferior race. (That’s pretty much how they deal with anyone, but the migrants could not know that.) Now, 12 years after legalization began, the immigration system is still a work in progress, as every foreign-born person can attest – and as is most cruelly evident in the indifference to the plight of children born here to immigrant parents. In every sphere, there is a sense that it’s not really urgent to solve migrants’ problems. This has often translated into the inhumane treatment of people detained by the coast guard or police in several documented cases (and who knows how many other such instances there were), with no officers being punished.

The police, the judiciary and other state functionaries may be either kind or cruel, depending on the individuals involved, but they are all part of a system that does not care about solving migrants’ problems, let alone trying to integrate them. And yet, except for the fascist thugs of Chrysi Avgi (Golden Dawn), most people will be horrified to be told that they tolerate institutionalized racism. Even Giorgos Karatza-feris, leader of the extreme right-wing LAOS party, has tried to present himself as anti-racist, while tolerating racists and anti-Semites who fly his party’s flag of convenience.

The recent episode in which fans of second-division Olympiakos Volos soccer club taunted Panathinaikos’s French star striker, Djibril Cisse, during a “friendly” soccer match, is typical of officials’ dangerous indifference. Cisse, a player with experience in the English and French leagues, was incensed at the insults. The referee as well as team and federation officials acted as if the incident was hardly worth noting. As we have seen countless times, soccer hooligans can be counted on to disgrace themselves and their country, so we cannot read too much into their actions. But, as with so many other ills in our society, sweeping the problem under the carpet will only allow it to grow until it explodes on the national or international scene. Initiatives such as “Show Racism the Red Card” (Page 5), cannot be praised too highly. They are aimed not at embarrassing Greece but changing it for the better.

Well… sorry if I sound big-headed but given the last few weeks of abuse and mud-slinging towards me, I think I’m justified in saying…. I told you and I think I told it better. Gentler, kinder, with greater understanding, with more love for this country. But I have been attacked over and over again for saying EXACTLY what is in the above article. Are Greeks racist ? Yes they are. And Greeks are not alone in being racist. Most Europeans are racist. And until Greece can accept the fact that racism exists on their soil, NOTHING will change.

At the end of the article it says

They are aimed not at embarrassing Greece but changing it for the better

And my intention never was to embarrass Greece. But enough is enough. I’ve had four years of insults, attacks, accusations, threats, insinuations and rudeness. I’m done with being nice.

I was actually living here through most of the changes that occurred. Mass immigration etc. I have had countless discussions about the “recent” changes in Greece. Sorry people but 15 to 20 years is not recent. As you have said countless times to me “Get over yourself” . Yes, I’m angry. Yes, I’m almost done. I may be “foreign” but I have told the truth. I have pointed out the ble#ding obvious.

Please feel free to change your opinion of me because of this post…

I’m used to it.

92 Comments

  1. AnonyMoose
    September 29, 2009    

    Diva, Great post, and don’t apologize for any of the nincompoops who post here. The reality is that many of the people who post about Greece don’t even live here. They post from the comfort of their US/UK/Canada/etc existence where life is smooth, and politeness is the norm, all with their wild fantasy dream about a Greece that just doesn’t exist. Greece is a great place when you visit and then go back to normalness in the US/UK/Canada/etc, but try having these people live with the crappy infrastructure that Greece is on a daily basis and maybe they’d be pissed off like some of us are. I will say that the Greeks I meet abroad tend to be nicer, politer, and remarkably follow the rules much better than the Athens Greeks…

    When Greeks start showing me the basic common courtesies of a civilized society, then maybe I’ll back them in their world issues. Until then, I’ll root for Albania, Turkey, Macedonia, USA, or any other country that plays them in any sporting event just to spite them!

  2. Xenos
    September 29, 2009    

    The Athens Plus article is a good and fair critique of how Greece and Greek people have handled immigration. There are also similar critiques appearing in the Greek newspapers, which means that at least part of Greek society is trying to modernise and get to grips with these things.

  3. Pnoql.z
    September 29, 2009    

    I don’t think that your, frequently but not always, sensible -but always meant in good faith, I presume- posts attract anyone’s ire – too strong a word in any case. It’s the various, non-serious “observations” and “declarations” like “AnonyMouse”‘s above that manage to do so and, as you know, they get much nastier at times.

  4. Stassa
    September 29, 2009    

    Nah, you know what the problem is in your blog. You just choose to say it’s people being mean to you. Obviously, some people will take criticism the wrong way. It just so happens that they’re also the ones who hold the anti-immigration, pro-discrimination views, so it’ seasy to tell them apart. Then there’s a few of us who take offense at being called “peasants” and so on in Xeno’s comments on every other post.

    I, in any case, made it perfectly clear that I don’t think your blog is anti-Greek and that you bring the right issues to the front, but, show me your friend, I’ll tell you who you are. And your blog seems to attract all the nice people who just want to vent their frustration at those third-world wogs in Greece. It’s like, they feel this is a safe place to do this, in a wink-wink, nudge-nudge, we-say-human-rights-but-we-know-what-we’re-talking-about-now-don’t-we?, time-honoured, Daily Mail style.

    So, you wanna run the News of the Third World? ‘S your blog, suit yourself. I’ll remove myself. Let’s see whether the trash-talking will stop. Nais touke, zanle devlesa. And sorry for calling you a bitch.

  5. Stassa
    September 29, 2009    

    Oh, yeah, forgot.

    Xenos:

    Chupa meu pau babaca filho da puta vagabunda! Sa te fut si mananca mi pizda, boule! Bouffe ta merde, conasse, fil’ d’ salope d’ putain d’ merde enculée!

    Right, now I’m off.

  6. Post Disagreement
    September 29, 2009    

    Are Greeks racist ? Yes they are. And Greeks are not alone in being racist. Most Europeans are racist.
    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

    Most Greeks all Greeks, many greeks? and compared to other population groups how different is it. Compared to Northern Europeans, Russians, Turks, Arabs, Jews, Japanese,Chinese etc.?

    And what do we mean, hatred and violence or simply not wanting too much demographic change in ones homeland..i.e. “i want my place to be safe and my place”?

    And i would add that most peoples of the earth are racist…if not racist “religionist” and if not that culturalist?

    And thats most Asians, Arabs, Jews, Africans, and Latin Americans…why is it so special if Europeans are any different?
    in fact one could say look only europeans societies even take large number of people unlike themselves in race, culture, religion etc. and grant them equal rights and citizenship…so relatively speaking Europeans in general are the least racist.

    And I point this out because only historically “white/European” countries are getting waves of immigrants and basically asked to be mulitculturalized.

    Other non-european nations do not have this phenomena while simultaneously being tolerant of it.

    Meaning masses from many places with many different religions and cultures and languages and then on top accomodating all these differences..etc.

    Some arab states do but they do not even make a pretense of tolerance acceptance etc.. Philiipno catholics in saudi arabia can assimilate by joining islam no other way for them thats it..or just be catholic but have no church and just do your job and be quiet and shut up is their attitude.

    The only time you see 100% no racism is when there is only one homogenous race and the only exceptions are one or two foreigners as travellers, diplomats, etc.

    Once you start getting multiple groups together there is always some kind -ism, racism, “religionism”…etc. to some degree.

    And its important to differentiate between hating others and simply disliking their culture. Xenos insists he does not hate Greeks but its very clear at minimum he dislikes at minimum much of Greeks (justly or unjustly).

    So, for instance. I do not hate Muslims. But I do not honestly, like seeing so many and to see them as a growing % of population in western countries and I do not hate other ethnicities but would like mine to remain dominant in Greece and Cyprus.

    In none of those countries of origins would I have equal rights to them their and even now that they are a minority even in Holland and UK you have radical imams talking about western women being whores for not wearing burquas, gays should be killed, the dutch are pigs because they eat pork..etc.. to me that is the height of arrogance you eat from somebodies hand and then spit in their face..(not you , i mean those imams and their followers).

    The Dutch and Scandanavians are the most tolerant but look at them look at how some of their immigrants treat and look down on the native women and culture.

    I feel a healthy sense of wanting a homeland for my people but not to the exclusion and understanding of :

    1) native historic minorities
    2) some number of needed immigrants
    3) and not without some compassion or humanity to genuine asylum seekers..but there is a limit.. for me its mostly the numbers and secondly its also the origin, sorry, but once bit twice shy,(asia minor was 100% christian, became 100% muslim). i.e, if we really need help get them from friendly cultures and countries.

  7. Xenos
    September 29, 2009    

    For the last few hundred years, Europeans have been emigrating from Europe — sometimes as colonists, sometimes as religious minorities seeking a better place, sometimes as refugees, sometimes as destitute looking for work. Post-1945 immigration into Europe started with refugees, continued with post-colonial migrants and “temporary” guestworkers, and when Europe closed its doors in the 1970s transmuted into family migration and asylum-seeking, along with irregular migration.

    In these last decades, the biggest migration (especially of refugees) has been within the African continent, along with temporary labour migration to the Middle East. Europe has had to deal with more immigration, all of which was economically needed. For the first time in history, Europe has faced quite large immigration flows. And the response has been racism, anti-immigration parties, refusal to grant asylum to victims of war caused partly by Europe and the USA.

    Greece behaved like an Arab country with its immigrants until the 1990s, now behaves as the worst EU country. Instead of accepting the concept of human rights of immigrants, or implementing the Geneva Convention in a proper way, Greeks have started complaining continuously that there are “too many” immigrants. The fact is, that there is an identical proportion of immigrants in Greece and Spain; both are around or below the European average. Recent arrivals of asylum-seekers from Asia present a challenge to the Greek state, which refuses to implement or itself obey the law. Again, Greeks complain and shout about too many immigrants arriving.

    Now, the latest trend (as shown in PD’s post above) is to complain that the rights of immigrants and minorities in desperately poor countries are less than in Greece, so why should Greece behave properly? If the answer is not obvious, then there is no point discussing anything on this topic,

  8. Xenos
    September 29, 2009    

    btw, Greek peasant Stassa: I express my view of how Greece treats immigration and immigrants in every forum other than the Daily Mail. That includes the European Parliament, the EUMC, UNECE, and any other place where it is appropriate.

    You can make your snide remarks, and nasty little quips, but the fact remains that you don’t like non-Greeks criticising Greece. Simple racial intolerance, and typically peasant.

  9. Cyd
    September 29, 2009    

    Mr “Name Dropper” is so important as is his work that he rarely misses posting a comment on a nothing blog (no offense to Diva) on an hourly basis. That should tell us something about his royal “hind-ass”.

    Too busy to debunk all his idiocy and lies at present. Needless to say, Europe is in the mess that it is in thanks to simpletons like him being allowed to have any positions of authority.

  10. = ZARDOZ =
    September 29, 2009    

    greeks have a shitful of fear ,
    when coming in contact with other races or colors or creeds in their own country ,
    NO MORE no less than any other race ,
    ……….creed or color,
    when the shoe is on their foot and they feel threatened.
    …..

    ..
    racissts.?
    xmm no more or less..? than who ..?
    only time will tell ,, till the greek peasants
    can afford good psychiatrists,,,.!
    or drown their shit for brains politicians..!
    or come to grips and sing all together lennons IMAGINE
    in great love vibes .
    ..
    ..
    till then divas articles help stimulate brains
    but the academics
    guest stars ,,, commenting on this blog ,are getting very tiring
    ..
    ..
    guys suggest something creative , MERCY
    .
    .the PEASANT = Z A R D O Z =

  11. Cyd
    September 30, 2009    

    Diva, Great post, and don’t apologize for any of the nincompoops who post here. The reality is that many of the people who post about Greece don’t even live here. They post from the comfort of their US/UK/Canada/etc existence where life is smooth, and politeness is the norm, all with their wild fantasy dream about a Greece that just doesn’t exist.

    And what makes you think that is the case? How do you know that many do not see the warts of Greece, but do not want it permanently altered? Sure Greece has many problems, but it is their right to sink with their problems. It is this “give to the lazy and stupid” form of virulent socialism that has led to Greece being lazy and stupid. Not to mention corrupt. Too F’ing bad and it is their mess to clean up. The mess is not made easier with future civil unrest and potential balkanization. Just look at Kosovo for the most recent example of what happens with squatters in a territory.

  12. Cyd
    September 30, 2009    

    The question is are Greeks racist? The answer is no more so than every other race and/or ethnic group on this planet. The sub races of Europe, South Asians, Asians, all the Middle East, Africa, South Americans, Mexicans, Caribbean, Israel and their diaspora are all racist, if one uses the criteria that the “anti”-racists here use. So, why the focus on Greece?

  13. Cyd
    September 30, 2009    

    This is the problem with a totalitarian regime, such as the EU, which does not listen to its people.

    http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/78180/50million-invited-to-Europe

    50 MILLION INVITED TO EUROPE

    Saturday January 3,2009

    AN EU job centre for migrants ??seeking work in Europe has been opened secretly in the West ??African state of Cape Verde.

    The project is the second phase of a Brussels tax-funded plan to invite more than 50 million African workers into Britain and other members of the 27-nation EU bloc.

    The advice centre, based in the island nation’s poverty-stricken capital Praia, follows a similar job centre opened in the desert ??African state of Mali in October.

    The project is part of the EU’s controversial plan to help Africans find work legally in Europe.

    50 Million Africans “invited” into Europe in a “secretly” opened job office in Cape Verde. These are the hostile people that control things and allow bootlick idiots, like Xenos, to bully nations into submission lest they be labeled racist. It’s not as if Xenos hasn’t tried to stifle dissent here with racist this and that. That is all they know and they certainly do not care for Europe nor her citizens.

    Is 50 million too much Xenos? Or do we need more? LOL!

  14. pj
    September 30, 2009    

    Do you have any more authoritative source for this story than the Daily Express? Otherwise I’d be inclined to treat it with a rather large grain of salt.

  15. Pd
    September 30, 2009    

    Erm, Cyd, this blog is focused on Greece-related issues so obviously it’s not going to comment on the UK or Israel.

  16. Post Disagreement
    September 30, 2009    

    Now, the latest trend (as shown in PD’s post above) is to complain that the rights of immigrants and minorities in desperately poor countries are less than in Greece, so why should Greece behave properly? If the answer is not obvious, then there is no point discussing anything on this topic,

    ………………………………………………..

    thats bs…saudi arabia and the gulf states are rich

  17. Post Disagreement
    September 30, 2009    

    Greeks have started complaining continuously that there are “too many” immigrants. The fact is, that there is an identical proportion of immigrants in Greece and Spain; both are around or below the European average

    ………………………………………..

    1. northern europe is richer hence the higher immigration
    2. spain has a much larger base population
    3. so what.. 10% its actually closer to 15% or 20%…but the point is even u have admitted has no need for any more immigrants..for economic reasons…”jobs greeks wont do”
    4. you ar very elitist with the constant talk of peasants …again are these albanians and pakistanis and somalis educated aristocrats

    TO DIVA:
    =======

    Are Greeks racist ? Yes they are. And Greeks are not alone in being racist. Most Europeans are racist. And until Greece can accept the fact that racism exists on their soil, NOTHING will change.
    …………………………………………………….

    so how are Greeks worse than any other group in this regard.

    Note how you said MOST Europeans are racist…implying they are some how especially so…blacks, asians, arabs, jews are not?

    look at what happens with immigrants to Japan..they can not even stand ethnic Japanese who are culturally brazilian…
    how are fillipinos treated in saudi arabia….what about how blacks treat whites in zimbabwe..

    Diva sorry to say but you are being a little over the top picking on Europeans and Greece in particular.

    White countries are for the most part the only nations on earth that accept and legalize any body from other races and religions.

    Japan does not, Korea does not, Saudi Arabia does not …all rich countries.

    ……………………………………………….

    If we as Greeks want to keep our country majority Greek thats our right. end of story anybody against that is someone promoting genocide against Greeks.

  18. Jack Handy
    September 30, 2009    

    This may be a bit off-topic, but wondering if anyone experiences this also.

    As an immigrant, when having disputes with the Greeks, I occasionally hear the comment “DO YOU KNOW WHO I AM” as if I’m supposed to be intimidated by this. So, here’s what you can say if you hear Greeks say this.

    I tell them (in Greek), “YOU DON’T KNOW WHO YOU ARE?–SHOULD I CALL A DOCTOR?” This takes the wind right out of their sails when you say it seriously as if they have Alzheimer’s.

    Remember, the key is to say it with pity as if you feel sorry for them that they don’t remember who they are.

  19. kala 40
    September 30, 2009    

    Can any threads remain troll-free or is that too much to ask?

  20. Jack Handy
    September 30, 2009    

    Kala 40, stating personal experiences as an immigrant isn’t trolling anymore than you assuming comments critical of Greece are trolling and wanting to censor them. If you don’t walk in the color of my skin/origin of my nation etc, you cannot experience my life in Greece.

    Have a nice day :)

  21. kala 40
    September 30, 2009    

    More off-topic trolling.

  22. Jack Handy
    September 30, 2009    

    you too!

  23. Xenos
    September 30, 2009    

    PD: for the most part, the countries that behave worse than Greece with immigrants are very poor. As I mentioned above, Greece behaved EXACTLY like an Arab country until 1997. What does that mean? Workers are legal ONLY is they are sponsored by an employer; they cannot change employer; they have no rights; their permits are renewed annually and they are subject to police control. Greece also refused to award permits for household work, so all the Filipina in the 1980s were illegal.

    This changed because Greece was an EU member since 1981 and also a member of the Council of Europe from earlier. Arab countries are not. Even with these political and legal pressures, it was not until 1997 — 16 years after joining the EU — that Greece even started to think about giving legal status to immigrants.

    So, yes, i agree with you that Greeks would like to behave like Arabs. The historical evidence is clear. I have previously suggested (somewhere on this blog)that Greece should leave the EU, because the standards and values of many Greeks are not acceptable to the EU and the CoE. So, either conform to our European legal standards or become part of the Arabic world: the choice is yours.

  24. Xenos
    September 30, 2009    

    Jack Handy: LOLOL !! Of course, anyone from a culture that does not recognise that social status takes priority over logic (such as USA, rest of Europe), finds the question to be ridiculous. This is also why the majority of Asian immigrants (from the *stan countries) find it acceptable, because it is culturally very similar.

    PD and some others here cannot understand that the people who fit in best with Greek values are from the East; we westerners are just incapable of accepting what, to our minds, is nonsense. Really, this cultural incompatibility is a big problem for Greece, since Greeks don’t like the Asian (or Albanian) immigrants.

  25. kala 40
    September 30, 2009    

    You have peddled your status before, Xenos, right here. 😉

    Dammit, man. More trolling.

  26. Xenos
    September 30, 2009    

    I do not peddle social status: I have 19 years experience of working in this area, and some 60 publications. It is not status, it is professional expertise — something rarely respected in Greece. The highly paid people in Greece are criminals and politicians (forgive the tautology).

    And you are the troll, not I.

  27. Post Disagreement
    October 1, 2009    

    we westerners are just incapable of accepting what, to our minds, is nonsense

    ………………………………….

    such as ?

  28. Cyd
    October 1, 2009    

    I do not peddle social status: I have 19 years experience of working in this area, and some 60 publications. It is not status, it is professional expertise

    Yawn. A fallacious argument, namely Appeal to Authority.

    http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/appeal-to-authority.html

    Specifically…

    If an expert is significantly biased then the claims he makes within his are of bias will be less reliable. Since a biased expert will not be reliable, an Argument from Authority based on a biased expert will be fallacious. This is because the evidence will not justify accepting the claim.

    Experts, being people, are vulnerable to biases and predjudices. If there is evidence that a person is biased in some manner that would affect the reliability of her claims, then an Argument from Authority based on that person is likely to be fallacious.

    Need I say more?

  29. Cyd
    October 1, 2009    

    Do you have any more authoritative source for this story than the Daily Express? Otherwise I’d be inclined to treat it with a rather large grain of salt.

    Yes I do. I will give links later to other sources.

  30. Xenos
    October 1, 2009    

    And who is to decide who is biased? Why, of course, it should be you, Cyd, and anyone else who disagrees with an expert. That way, you can pooh-pooh all expert knowledge that you don’t like as being biased and put forward your own crackpot amateur ideas.

    Give us a break.

  31. Post Disagreement
    October 1, 2009    

    I have previously suggested (somewhere on this blog)that Greece should leave the EU, because the standards and values of many Greeks are not acceptable to the EU and the CoE.
    ———————————————————–

    Hm, maybe this way we can have our own currency ..but the international bankers dont like renegade provinces..so it wont happen.

    They would rather keep us in to control us.

    Meanwhile, I’d be curious on your position on Turkey in the EU..you are going to tell me that if Greece is such a problem that Turkey has a place?. Turks are far more nationalist and extreme in their nationalism than most Greeks.

    So who belongs in your EU?

    You know believe it or not most northern europeans may not mind some immigration but they too do not want to become minorities in their on country, and are worried about islam, …and of course in Eastern Germany where their is higher unemployment people dislike, distrust or simply want foreigners gone..

    So its also an economic issue.

    True Europe maybe richer than much of the world. But that wealth is also concentrated in a few hands. i.e. it does nothing for Gunther if Angela Merkel is rich and he is unemployed.

    Is Hirsi Ali (i may have the spelling wrong) a self hating ex Muslim? Do you know who that is?

    I do not criticize you for critizing Greece.
    But honestly I do not think Northern Europeans are much better they maybe more passive agressive and polite about their feelings about Muslims and others living in their land.

    And since they are much better then they should be willing to help us lowly Greeks and take in some of these beloved people.

    Turks have lived in Germany for 50 years and they are not accepted for the most part.

    Look at Sweden and France Muslims live in ghettos there.

  32. Cyd
    October 1, 2009    

    And who is to decide who is biased? Why, of course, it should be you, Cyd, and anyone else who disagrees with an expert. That way, you can pooh-pooh all expert knowledge that you don’t like as being biased and put forward your own crackpot amateur ideas.

    A valid counter-argument, were it not for all your damning words strewn throughout this blog that clearly show your bias. NOW you want to back peddle and sound unbiased? Too late, I’m afraid. As well, I cannot help the fact that you stumble all over these classic pitfalls and then get upset at me, call me “amateur” and “crackpot”, when all I do is point them out and show you for the truly amateur thinker you are.

  33. Xenos
    October 1, 2009    

    The spelling is “back-pedal” and I am doing no such thing. You can have your opinions about me, but they are only your opinions. Your opinions do not constitute any sort of intelligent judgement of my or anyone else’s work. The only way to establish bias is from a global referendum of all experts on a topic.

  34. Cyd
    October 1, 2009    

    The only way to establish bias is from a global referendum of all experts on a topic.

    I see. I’m sure we have evidence of this in each and every case where bias was questioned and then confirmed? This “global” referendum involving “all” experts? LOL

    Jesus, do you actually believe your shit or just expect us to because of your “expertise”?

  35. Xenos
    October 1, 2009    

    Fuck off, pousthmalaka

  36. Post Disagreement
    October 1, 2009    

    Diva in the previous log you were talking about how most greeks and most europeans are racist? My challenge would you say the same applies universally to all peoples of earth or are you saying that most people are regardless of race?

    That in fact is anti-european(anti-white)..some how you are implying that only Europeans have this feature.

    When just look around the world an you know this not true.

    i.e, peoples of the same race are “racist” against each other ..i.e, Japanese look down on Chinese, Shia and Sunnis dont like each other, Hutus and Tutsi, Arabs and Jews are supposedly related people and they have or at least a significant portion of their population have an attitude toward each other.

    So what do you want to change…human nature.

    Good Luck. No group welcomes large groups of others various people to its shores.

    Even America..originally they only wanted Protestant “nordic” people. that changed over time and only begrudgingly so.

    and xenos you side stepped my question much earlier.

    What would be so wrong if Greece said (talking about economic migrants) if you did not come here legally and dont have a job you must go? here is some money and plane fare?

    What would be so wrong if Greece does need immigrants and it picked and choose from where it sourced its migrants?
    Whats so evil about that?

    Are you telling me there is no such thing as culturual compatibility? Some cultures meld better than others.

    i.e, if we need 10,000 nurses and we do not have them locally and decide we want them from Romania instead of Tunisia whats the big deal?

  37. Cyd
    October 2, 2009    

    Do you have any more authoritative source for this story than the Daily Express? Otherwise I’d be inclined to treat it with a rather large grain of salt.

    Europa

    Europa

    Europa

    IPS news

    Africa.com

    There’s more.

  38. Post Disagreement
    October 2, 2009    

    Just to prove my point ( i.e, that “racism”is not a greek or european endeavor exclusively ):

    http://en.afrik.com/article16008.html

    Society – North Africa – Algeria – China – Trade – Employment
    Algeria: Xenophobia against Chinese on the rise in Africa

    And at least there the chinese are coming with money helping these countries exploit their resources for the mutual benefit..

  39. pj
    October 2, 2009    

    Thanks, Cyd, those are very interesting links. Needless, to say, though, the Express story seems to be almost completely a fabrication.

    I counted the following inaccuracies or unsubstantiated claims (there may be more, but it’s a short article):

    1) The centre isn’t secret
    2) It isn’t a job centre
    3) One of the main purposes of the centre is to curb illegal immigration
    4) No one is being “invited”
    5) The figure of 50 million appears to be invented (the entire population of Cape Verde is 500,000)
    6) Britain is not involved in the scheme

    If you have any reputable sources that back up the story, I’d still be interested to read them…

  40. Greeks in Omaha 1900s
    October 2, 2009    

    Post Disagreement, I agree with you that Racism is not proprietary to Greece.

    BUT, and this is a big butt! We live in Greece, and have to deal with the funny stares, xenophobia, racist graffiti, etc., and the Greek Federal Authorities do little to combat it.

    If Greece came out and said that they were going to prosecute hate crimes with serious criminal penalties (against immigrants, gays, etc) as other forward thinking countries do, I would certainly stop criticizing Greece immediately.

    The problem is that if the government does not take racism seriously, how can we expect Kyria Katina to take it seriously?

    To show you I totally agree that Racism existed elsewhere, take this perfect (HORRIFIC) example of the people of Omaha, Nebraska in the early 1900s where Greeks were considered vermin.

    Link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racial_tension_in_Omaha,_Nebraska#20th_century

    I quote:

    Greek Town was a growing Greek immigrant community in South Omaha. Other immigrants resented the Greeks, who had come to the city as strikebreakers. Many men of the community had been jobless for an extensive period after they were laid off following the strikes. Some Omaha citizens assumed they were lazy rather than unemployed. In September 1909 a male resident of the community was arrested by an Irish South Omaha policeman for allegedly having a relationship with a “white” woman. (He was taking English lessons from her.) The man took the officer’s gun and shot him,. After the Greek was captured a short while later, a mob of ethnic whites numbering about 1,000 arrived at the door of the jail. By then the South Omaha policemen had transferred the man to the Omaha city jail. (The jurisdictions were then separate.) Frustrated, the mob turned to the Greek neighborhood and began to destroy it, threatening all of its residents with death if they didn’t leave town. Within a day the entire six-by-six block area was abandoned, its former residents scattered into cities across the Midwest. Meanwhile, the mob destroyed the entire neighborhood. The accused Greek immigrant was brought to trial; however, after intervention from the Greek ambassador to the U.S., who protested the government’s failure to protect the community, the man was released and charges dropped.

    END QUOTE

    Every Greek person should be taught this story in school so that they will not make the same mistakes as America, UK etc.

    Can you not agree with this? If Greeks are truly superior to others as many in this country tell me, then start acting like it and embrace immigrants!!!

  41. Post Disagreement
    October 2, 2009    

    Greeks in Omaha 1900s says:

    If Greece came out and said that they were going to prosecute hate crimes with serious criminal penalties (against immigrants, gays, etc) as other forward thinking countries do, I would certainly stop criticizing Greece immediately.

    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

    Criticize Greece and Greeks thats your right but my point is more that Greece and Greeks can not be held to a different standard..i.e., that we alone and wholly as a group are these malevolent haters and selfishly want Greece to remain majority Greek…(Most Swedes want Sweden to remain majority Swedish)

    Hate crime laws are ethically wrong. Because instead of punishing crime one is punishing feelings and thoughts..both of which can change and one can not always presume motivation..ie. and these laws normally have a component of speech crime.

    Let me give you a for instance:

    if I criticize israel and someone unstable beats up a jew I could then be punished because a jewish group can say your criticism of Judaism or Israel “caused” this crime.

    Or look at what happened in Sweden to Pastor Ake Green a Baptist minister was preaching in his own church and talked about homosexuality in a way a that homosexuals found offensive so this is hate speech and he was arrested.

    Thats silly, you may think the bible is silly too, but thats not the point. the point is that thought, speech and hate crime laws are powerful tools to shut down debate, and attack political and social opponents.

    We do not need hate crime laws…i.e, Murder, theft, rape are illegal already.

    Its deplorable what happened to those Greeks In Omaha but what does that mean..we have to hand over our country to all comers.
    BTW in case you have not looked on a map…Greece is much smaller than the USA and the US was largely unpopulated at that time.

    I do not advocate violence against anyone, whether they are illegal or legal immigrants or asylum seekers or gays or jehovahs etc.

    I do advocate that because many of the current “undocumented”/illegal (economic) migrants are unemployed offering them a carrot and stick to leave..i.e. penalties for overstaying their visas or money if they accept to be voluntarily be deported back to wherever they come from.

    When/if there are true holes in the labor market that can not be met locally yes it is wise and mutually beneficial to accept temporary guest workers and/or legal long term or perm immigrants.

    This benefits society and ensures labor wont be exploited.

    Asylum seekers are a separate story from economic migrants.

    I am saying keep those issues apart.

    BTW by having laws that say there will be extra or special penalties for crimes against immigrants or gays etc.
    do we not just elevate the value of one type of victim over another?

    i.e., what if an immigrant kills a Greek should he get hate crime penalties..in most nordic countries this only applies to “minorities”…i.e. its still illegal to kill whites in sweden but if a nonswede does it its not the same as if a swede kills a non-swede the latter is a hate crime the former is not.

    So lets just be just and punish actions rather than thoughts and feelings and creating big brother type tribunals to determine what motivated the crime..Crime is Crime and should be punished end of story.

    Feelings and thoughts and speech should not be criminalized even that with which we disagree.

    i.e. if communist came to power they can criminalize indirectly their opposition as haters and shut them down, or think about it this way …what if an extreme nationalist party came to power..they could use their power to say anybody who criticizes them, Greece or Greeks is a hate criminal. actually turkey has a law like this…its against the law to insult turkishness and kemal ataturk..a model on tv once innocently kicked a balloon with the turkish flag on it and was almost charged with a “hate crime”.

    So crimes against persons and property are crimes and should be dealt with..

    i.e. its entirely possible that the pastor in sweden preached what he did not out of hate but out of love in his mind he may have been expressing concern for the soul or health of gays.
    now you or i may not agree with his religious reasoning but thats the point..we can not criminalizes feelings and thoughts and speech we disagree with it detracts from pursuing actual crime.

    Its kind of retarded to have a government agency sit there and determine motivations of feelings and thoughts. Police and courts should be focusing on fighting actual crime..physical crime..if the pastor hit a gay or muslim then thats different then him saying something that may offend a muslim or gay or jew or secularist etc.

    pretty soon, no religion could be criticized (except for christianity) no cultural practices ( honor killings, other sharia medieval craziness) no societal issues debated. its just whoever is in power gets to say who is protected and who is not.
    i.e., insulting Christianity could be legal while insulting Islam would be a hate crime.

    if we did have hate crimes laws you can safely say the Greek Orthodox church..would try to use them against its critics..and it has the influence to do it…some how let me take a stab in the dark…that would not be okay with you.

    Again “liberals” need to realize these kind of laws could always be turned around against them as well.

    Its ironic you mention gays and immigrants.

    these are two protected classes in nordic countries and there are conflicts of what takes precedence.

    ex: Because the Netherlands was having a problem with Moroccan youth beating gays there..but they wanted to say oh its not hate crime because these are underpriveleged kids lashing out at an intolerant or cold racist Dutch society. So they get off light because they are downtrodden. to me those youths should be charged the same way not get off light because of their background and not get special punishment either based on who they hurt.

    When people pointed out the religion and ethnicity of the perps..there were cries of hate and racism and hate speech against muslims and moroccans etc.

    see this is what all this multiculturalism does, a nation at war with itself.

    BTW you mentioned something about Greeks being superior.

    I never said Greeks were superior (or inferior) just human like everybody else, and humans groups and individuals to varying degrees have exclusionary and sometimes violently hostile policies and attitudes towards “others”.

    BTW why is it a mark of superiority to embrace immigrants?

    Illegal entry should not be tolerated.
    if we need labor then it should be done in a legal organized reccruitment effort not chaos and craziness.

    I could see if you said Greeks should show their superiority (assuming you mean in terms of humanitarians terms) embracing asylum seekers (legit ones).

    But economic migrants..unless they are invited why should we embrace someone who broke the law to come in…conversely I am not saying that persons humanity should not be respected but neither does that entitle them to citizenship and legalization either.

  42. Xenos
    October 2, 2009    

    Greeks in Omaha: Greeks (in Greece) do not accept the idea of any legislation giving rights to minorities, limiting the rights of Greeks to be abusive to minorities or immigrants (or the handicapped, or gay). This is the nationalistic malakies that was built up since the 19th century: that Greece is for Greeks and everybody else can just fuck off. Of course, there is EU legislation (from the 2000 directives) on non-discrimination, but they will never apply it unless the EU cuts off money to force the issue.

    Note that there is substantial successful court action for cases of libel or slander involving politicians and the rich. This is the sort of country we are talking about — where you have to be Greek, rich and a politician. The fact that most of the people inhabiting the last two categories here are criminals, who should be serving life sentences in prison for their crimes, doesn’t worry Greeks. They continue to allow their politicians to give themselves immunity from criminal prosecution, while complaining loudly about the “problems” caused by immigrants.

  43. Cyd
    October 2, 2009    

    Thanks, Cyd, those are very interesting links. Needless, to say, though, the Express story seems to be almost completely a fabrication.

    I counted the following inaccuracies or unsubstantiated claims (there may be more, but it’s a short article):

    1) The centre isn’t secret
    2) It isn’t a job centre
    3) One of the main purposes of the centre is to curb illegal immigration
    4) No one is being “invited”
    5) The figure of 50 million appears to be invented (the entire population of Cape Verde is 500,000)
    6) Britain is not involved in the scheme

    If you have any reputable sources that back up the story, I’d still be interested to read them…

    I’m not completely disagreeing with your points above, however I do not completely agree as well. Words are quite powerful and how things are presented makes a huge difference. This news was not presented in major publications for all to see. In fact, as you state, it was from the Express. Now, I can see why they would want to “inflate” the story for political purposes, though the EU and western nations as a whole have not been the most honest about their intentions. So with that…

    1) The centre(s) is secret enough, wouldn’t you say? You never knew about it.

    2) It isn’t claimed as a job centre, though why would people immigrate in this day and age? Mostly for economical, i.e. work reasons.

    3) So they say, and how do they “fix” illegal immigration? By making all of them “legal”. Nice end around the laws.

    4) I disagree. It gives the appearance of an invitation when a government opens an office in Africa to help people get into Europe.

    5) This is the only one I can agree with you, though again not fully. Word travels fast and if people catch wind that offices in certain places help them get into Europe, people will flock there.

    6) I do not agree and certainly have my doubts. With King Blair being prepped to be all time ruler of the EU, I would think Britain is the biggest driver behind such things in the EU.

  44. Post Disagreement
    October 2, 2009    

    Greeks (in Greece) do not accept the idea of any legislation giving rights to minorities, limiting the rights of Greeks to be abusive to minorities or immigrants (or the handicapped, or gay).
    ……………………………………………..

    correction unrecognized minorities would be more accurate.
    and I do not know many Greeks who want to be abusive to the handicapped or gays.

    ……………………………………………..

    This is the nationalistic malakies that was built up since the 19th century: that Greece is for Greeks and everybody else can just fuck off.

    …………………………………………………

    Well think about it all nation states are basically founded with the idea that they are an ethnic homeland..the everybody else can fuck off is added in by you to basically make it sound that nationalist who simply desire a homeland / self determination for their people are by necessity having this fuck off with everybody else mind set.

    i.e., you can be proud of your country and people but that does not automatically mean you hate or put down others.

    I love my children does not mean I hate yours..
    …………………………………………………..

    Of course, there is EU legislation (from the 2000 directives) on non-discrimination, but they will never apply it unless the EU cuts off money to force the issue.

    ……………………………………………………..

    And they have not done it why? because it would be the pot(s) calling the kettle black as the expression goes.
    If there is a case then why not pursue it. Greece would be obligated to correct or conform.

    ……………………………………………………….

    Actually a lot of the extreme left / communist and extreme right /nationalist agree on this with you:

    The fact that most of the people inhabiting the last two categories here are criminals, who should be serving life sentences in prison for their crimes….

    so it does indeed worry at least some Greeks.
    ………………………………………………

    Also you are confounding the issue..just because there is one type of problem (corrupt politicians and criminals) that means we have to embrace all illegal entrants into the country.

    ………………………………………………..

    They continue to allow their politicians to give themselves immunity from criminal prosecution, while complaining loudly about the “problems” caused by immigrants.

    …………………………………………………..

    Are you saying immigrants do not cause problems.

    an illegal immigrant is not to far off from being an uninvited invader unless he/she is a refugee or asylum seeker.
    True that economic migrants for the most part are coming to improve their lives not with the thought of invading or hurtin Europe or Greece etc.. but nonetheless there has to be rules and controls and limits.

    i.e., you are in essence advocating a general amnesty and legalization to all hear and continued unchecked in flows of migrants..and if you disagree with that then you are a peasant, a malaka, or dont care about other human beings etc.

    you are creating a staw man. Just because someone disagrees with you about immigration does not mean they hate anyone or are evil.

    Its like we can not say in my opinion there are too many immigrants…in fact, there are…again i have to clarify again so my view is not distorted. I am not saying we do not need any people and I am not even saying that people who have been working here a while should not have certain rights…I am saying we are at capacity now…no more…and give incentives to those not here legally who are not employed to return home.
    Whats the point of them living here if they do not have a job anyway?

  45. Souvlaki
    October 2, 2009    

    Listen Greece is a fine place, but they just elevate their worth more than the reality allows. Greeks when abroad get an awakening of sorts when traveling to New York, London, etc and realizes that Rome is now New York and the Oracle really is not in Delphi. Love the tzadziki and souvlaki

  46. Xenos
    October 2, 2009    

    PD: nobody here is saying that Greece, at this time, should bring in more immigrant workers. We are saying several other things, which you keep diverting to your agenda:

    (1) Most of the sans papiers in Greece have been here for some time, many have held permits in the past, and all either work or try to work. You cannot deport them: they have rights. (Of course, the Nazis here will deny that they have rights.)

    (2) Anti-discrimination laws and hate speech laws are part of the post-1945 Europe. Greece wants to behave like Saudi Arabia? Fine, leave the EU, Council of Europe, NATO etc. Then watch as Turkey starts laughing at you: these institutions are all that Greece has to protect it. So just obey the fucking rules, for once.

    (3)Greece does not respect the Geneva Convention, the rights of asylum-seekers and refugees, and is continuously found to be in contempt of the legal principles of due process, right to trial, legal representation, inter alia. There is no attempt to correct this third world mess: clearly neither ND nor Pasok is ashamed of it.

    So, these three things have nothing at all to do with the economy and labour market situation. They are about how Greece behaves.

  47. Post Disagreement
    October 3, 2009    

    PD: nobody here is saying that Greece, at this time, should bring in more immigrant workers. We are saying several other things, which you keep diverting to your agenda:

    (1) Most of the sans papiers in Greece have been here for some time, many have held permits in the past, and all either work or try to work. You cannot deport them: they have rights. (Of course, the Nazis here will deny that they have rights.)

    ……………………………………………………

    i do not disagree that they have rights, but those who have been here for some time and dont have work should be invited to leave with financial incentives to do so.
    —————————————————
    (2) Anti-discrimination laws and hate speech laws are part of the post-1945 Europe. Greece wants to behave like Saudi Arabia? Fine, leave the EU, Council of Europe, NATO etc. Then watch as Turkey starts laughing at you: these institutions are all that Greece has to protect it. So just obey the fucking rules, for once.
    ———————————————————–
    i am not sure about th speech law part of that. nato is amilitary not a political union.and as u know nato is not at all about human rights…

    Turkey is not wanted in the eu because france, austria and germany do not want them.

    and those things really have done nothing for greece in terrms of turkey and its intransigence in the aegan and cyprus..

    and i did not say i do not think greece should be like saudi arabia

    —————————————————————–
    (3)Greece does not respect the Geneva Convention, the rights of asylum-seekers and refugees, and is continuously found to be in contempt of the legal principles of due process, right to trial, legal representation, inter alia. There is no attempt to correct this third world mess: clearly neither ND nor Pasok is ashamed of it.

    So, these three things have nothing at all to do with the economy and labour market situation. They are about how Greece behaves.

    ——————————————————-

    if greece is doing somthing wrong then these issues could be brought up in lawsuits against the government ….not by demonizing the greek people as a whole as peasants etc..
    you from the land of bnp

  48. Post Disagreement
    October 3, 2009    

    speaking of hate speech.,,,,

    calling a whole ethnic group peasants etc. is not love speech.

    you do more to undermine your cause than helping it by your attitudes. i.e. your mad at cyd or whoever and you make nasty comments about greeks in general…that someone who might even partially agree w you is put off.

    so please do not go into the diplomatic or public relations field.

  49. Xenos
    October 3, 2009    

    PD: I have no interest in diplomacy. I consider myself to be a scientist, who looks for the truth. (You can debate whether I find it or not.) Few people like the truth, unless it brings them money or power. Diplomats and politicians certainly tend to run away from it.

    On the institutional issues, you cannot be a member of NATO while withdrawing from the EU and CoE. It is unthinkable, since they are all so closely connected. I don’t know what you’re talking about with Turkey: it reflects your Greek agenda. As far as everyone else is concerned, Turkey wanted to offload northern Cyprus because of its great cost financially and politically and was keen for the Annan Plan to work: it was a few nationalist Cypriots who fucked it up.

    Finally, I did not say that Greeks are peasants. I have said that Greece has a peasant culture; and I have called some very rude people here (not, I think, you) peasants, as a characteristic of their behaviour. This is very different from what you stated above. Also, I do not get uppity when people state — as they do — that the British have a colonial mentality. If you want to have such opinions, feel free. It is not hate speech.

  50. Xenos
    October 3, 2009    

    FYI: Spain for some time has been promoting voluntary return of migrants through financial incentives, because of the weak economy. I also support this policy, with sufficient safeguards, for Greece. The Greek ministries are aware of my position on that.

    In fact, the only reason that Greek policy is going nowhere with these things, is because (uniquely in Europe) Greeks think that when there is an election, the whole country should stop working and everything be left to fall apart.

  51. pj
    October 3, 2009    

    LOL! OK Cyd, have it your way…

  52. Post Disagreement
    October 3, 2009    

    Okay then I guess I do not see eye to eye but I do not think my positions are as diametrically opposed as I original thought.

    I still think you can choose to keep the discourse at a higher level.

    You through in a remark about cyprus..that annan plan basically gave the turks immediately all of their demands and gave the greek cypriots not much of anything…but thats a conversation for another board another time.

  53. Xenos
    October 3, 2009    

    Thank you, PD. I try to be polite, but the lack of respect for others shown by many people on the internet makes me angry.

    On Cyprus, I am no expert, but I have been there and discussed these issues with Cypriots and state officials. It is a long, controversial and sad story with the division of Cyprus and the Annan Plan too.

  54. Cyd
    October 3, 2009    

    Spain for some time has been promoting voluntary return of migrants through financial incentives, because of the weak economy. I also support this policy, with sufficient safeguards, for Greece. The Greek ministries are aware of my position on that.

    Is there any evidence for this stance of yours aside from your good word?

  55. Cyd
    October 3, 2009    

    LOL! OK Cyd, have it your way…

    What exactly is so funny, pj? Maybe this topic is too complicated for you. How about justifying the EU’s continued push for a constitution despite two non-confidence referendums/votes, one in 2005 with France and the Netherlands and the most recent being the Irish rejecting the Lisbon Treaty. Once the constitution was rejected, it was not allowed to be brought back from the dead. Yet here we are…

    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article6821678.ece

    An opinion poll found that support for the treaty — which will create the EU’s first president and end national vetos on several key policy areas — has fallen by eight points over the summer to 46 per cent. The number of those intending to vote “no” has risen by one point to 29 per cent and the “undecideds” stand at 25 per cent.

    The poll bears an astonishing resemblance to one conducted a month before the treaty was last put to the country in a referendum, which was lost by a margin of 53-47 per cent. The Irish Republic is the only country to allow its people to vote on the treaty, which replaces the failed EU constitution

    So, we have a totalitarian state that doesn’t care what the stupid peasants think and will have them vote until the right answer is given and YOU think they are being truthful on everything else, including immigration? LOL, now that deserves a hearty laugh.

  56. pj
    October 3, 2009    

    Maybe this topic is too complicated for you.

    Probably, Cyd, probably. I certainly think the issue is more complicated than you’re suggesting.

    What exactly is so funny, pj?

    Let me see if I’ve got this straight. Your reason for believing that the EU is setting up job centres to facilitate the immigration of millions of Africans to Europe is that there’s not one shred of evidence to support the story, and that therefore the EU must be doing it in secret. Brilliant!

  57. Xenos
    October 3, 2009    

    I had not intended to comment on this, lest the paranoia of Cyd be encouraged. But the idea of setting up centre in Africa (which I have advocated for some time) is to enable vocational training of young people and offer them some hope of migrating legally. So, in fact, the centres are an attempt to reduce illegal migration with some possibility of formal migration strategies (as PD has been suggesting).

    So far, Spain has pioneered these centres with 19 (I think) of them; the EU has started to follow because it is an intelligent strategy. They are part of a comprehensive policy of education, job creation, and economic development in sub-Saharan Africa. At this time, with the economic recession, nobody is recruiting unskilled or semi-skilled migrants. There is another sort of problem with “brain-drain” from Africa, but these centres are nothing to do with that.

  58. Xenos
    October 3, 2009    

    The appalling lack of democratic structure in the EU is another story. It is the direct result of member state governments, fearful for their potential loss of power and money-raking, refusing to make the EU a proper democratic institution, with an effective parliament, and direct election of its governing officials. The idea that Blair could be imposed on all of Europe as president will actually probably kill the European Union: Sarkozy is the person responsible for this shit, and we can only guess why.

  59. Cyd
    October 3, 2009    

    Let me see if I’ve got this straight. Your reason for believing that the EU is setting up job centres to facilitate the immigration of millions of Africans to Europe is that there’s not one shred of evidence to support the story, and that therefore the EU must be doing it in secret. Brilliant!

    No need for hysterics, pj, and no you do not have it “straight” but are trying to twist it into some form of “craziness” despite being provided exactly what you asked for. Reasons for you doing such things are either stupidity, which may be the case, or you thought there was no evidence for such “conspiracy issues”.

    Simply stick to what we know, which is an abundance of evidence that the EU has set up TWO offices in Africa to assist Africans to enter Europe; the reasons given are immaterial at present. Several of those links were from Europa, the news portal for the EU. Correct? Correct. Now, your biggest gripe is what exactly? The 50 million number? I’ve stated my point and the numbers that potentially will enter will not be in the hundreds, but likely in the millions.

    What next? The secrecy? Officially “out in the open” yet no major news agency covered it. But then again so were major events such as the mortgage fiasco in the US and the financial collapse of last year. All those were “out in the open” if one was interested, yet hidden from the masses in order to guarantee the maximum amount of complacency. You certainly did not know about these job centers and I can guarantee the number of Europeans that are unaware of this is easily over 50% if not over 75%. You wanted confirmation from other “more reliable” sources and got it, so where is this major problem of yours? What exactly has your head aspinnin’? And if you’re going to respond with more gibberish, then save us both the trouble.

    I just love how you guys completely ignore unpleasant facts. I’m still waiting for Xenos to give me reasons about nationalism and why it is bad with some nations and ok with others. Let’s see if you can do a little better than that.

  60. Cyd
    October 3, 2009    

    Well, there is your answer, pj.

    I had not intended to comment on this, lest the paranoia of Cyd be encouraged.

    It isn’t paranoia if it is true, now is it?

    Yes, it is so hard to battle illegal immigration. (eye roll) Nothing but a few well placed gun turrets that should take care of 99% of the problems.

    So, in fact, the centres are an attempt to reduce illegal migration with some possibility of formal migration strategies

    Who decided this? Our masters? When was it put to a vote? Oh, I forgot, the EU does not want its citizens to vote on “unimportant” things.

    They are part of a comprehensive policy of education, job creation, and economic development in sub-Saharan Africa. At this time, with the economic recession, nobody is recruiting unskilled or semi-skilled migrants

    Oh goody! And here I thought it was really bad.

    The idea that Blair could be imposed on all of Europe as president will actually probably kill the European Union:

    One can only hope, but then the EU elite understand very well there are utter morons, such as pj, who refuse to see the truth no matter what.

  61. Xenos
    October 3, 2009    

    If you want a vote or plebiscite on every issue of policy, as Swiss cantons do, you can expect to be voting several times every week. This is clearly ridiculous.

    Everyone in Europe, in principle, is opposed to illegal migration. So it is assumed that a policy to reduce it (which is in conformity with international and European law) will have the support of the whole population. We exclude long-term residents of lunatic asylums from the expected support.

  62. Cyd
    October 3, 2009    

    It’s not “every” issue, obfuscator. It is ONE MAJOR issue.

    Here, let me try:

    A vote on illegal immigration: The solution should be…

    a) Prevent illegal immigration by creating solid barriers and diligent enforcement of laws to repatriate the offenders each and every time.

    b) Provide “job centers” so these illegals can come to Europe legally. Hence eliminating “illegal” immigration.

    How do you think the result of the above vote would turn out if allowed to take place in Europe, MALAKA?

  63. pj
    October 3, 2009    

    Cyd, you’re citing the Express. That says it all, really. Talk about destroying your own credibility…

  64. Xenos
    October 4, 2009    

    Your childish mentality is beyond belief. It is the stupidity of voters like you that encourages politicians to do things secretly. You obviously understand precisely nothing about all of the following:

    1) Human nature
    2) International and European law
    3) the reality of all attempts to control migration in the world — physical barriers don’t work and are not possible anyway, malaka
    4) the irrelevance of irregular migration when we have a global economic crisis
    5) the world

  65. Cyd
    October 4, 2009    

    Actually, it only “says it all” to closed-minded idiots with no legs to stand on and an axe to grind, pj.

    What is your ancestral background, pj?

  66. pj
    October 4, 2009    

    What is your ancestral background, pj?

    Um, why? What’s the relevance?

  67. Cyd
    October 4, 2009    

    FUCK YOU and your unfounded condescension, you “academic” fraud and mental midget.

    I find it hilarious and simultaneously abhorrent that you brazenly admit…

    It is the stupidity of voters like you that encourages politicians to do things secretly.

    It is this mentality that warrants a thorough cleansing of the “elite” who view the populace with contempt and disgust. Just like the good old days. Rope and all!

    There wasn’t this major migration from Africa 30-40 years ago, was there? No? Why? How about barriers that prevent migration through Mexico from the southern border? Israel? What do these two nations know that an idiot such as yourself, does not? Barriers actually work, that’s what!

  68. Cyd
    October 4, 2009    

    Funny how this fraud absolutely hates the peasants, not only in Greece, but also the rest of Europe. Yet he claims he is “not biased”. I am literally shocked, which is difficult to do, that he readily admits to this contempt by the ruling elite for the masses. It is easy to see if one wants to see it, though it is rather shocking to here it confirmed. Idiots such as pj are stuck on “The Express”.

  69. Cyd
    October 4, 2009    

    Aren’t you capable of answering any damn question? Because, is your answer. Now where are you from?

  70. pj
    October 4, 2009    

    Aren’t you capable of answering any damn question? Because, is your answer. Now where are you from?

    I can’t see why this is relevant, and given your insulting tone I don’t see why I should answer.

  71. Cyd
    October 4, 2009    

    I can’t see

    I think you should just leave it at that. That describes your situation rather accurately.

  72. Cyd
    October 4, 2009    

    Wonderful! The Irish just delivered the Throne to King Blair.

    http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601085&sid=aP.HIw18JXi8

    See, if given enough chances, they’d eventually get the vote “correct”.

    Few men desire liberty; most men wish only for a just master. — Sallust

    For Xenos,

    Every bad precedent originated as a justifiable measure. — Sallust

  73. Xenos
    October 4, 2009    

    Idiot Cyd: border controls don’t work. OK? Can you understand that? I know that you always think you know better, but you know nothing.

    The USA has far more illegal immigrants than the EU (estimated at 11m or more) and still does not have a complete border with Mexico because it would cost too much. Israel also has a very high proportion of illegal immigrants. Their illegal barrier is to stop the Palestinians from suicide bombing the country: their police state is focused on terrorism not on immigration. In fact, since they stopped Palestinians from crossing into Israel to work, the number of illegal immigrants in Israel has really taken off.

    So, I repeat for those who are slow of mind: no country has effective border controls. East Germany once did: maybe you would like a time machine to go there, Cyd?

  74. Cyd
    October 4, 2009    

    Hmmmm…let me see here. I’m having a hard time deciphering who is the idiot. Me or the person who emphatically states borders do not work in his first paragraph and then gives an example of borders that did work in his last? LOL

    Just shut the f*ck up about the Mexican border because you have no idea what you speak of. It has nothing to do with cost, idiot. Is has to do with political will and the elite vs peasant dichotomy you so proudly wear on your sleeve. It has to do with the elites wanting the influx of migrants for a multitude of the same stupid reasons you have given here. It acts a release valve for Mexico and their internal economic struggles. In the parts of the border where there has been some civilian diligence to stop border crossings, they have been successful. If a border fence goes up, the rate across will go to zero. All it takes is political will, so fuck you, malaka.

  75. Xenos
    October 4, 2009    

    I don’t have any problem in figuring out who is the idiot. If you think that East Germany’s border policy was acceptable, then go fuck yourself, you little Nazi. You are just a shitbag.

  76. Cyd
    October 4, 2009    

    I don’t have any problem in figuring out who is the idiot. If you think that East Germany’s border policy was acceptable, then go fuck yourself, you little Nazi. You are just a shitbag.

    That is simply another nail in your “idiocy” coffin, idiot. Your grand, universal “truism” have only shown you to be a shallow, lightweight thinker and not anyone to be taken seriously. Of course border enforcement works and when applied in earnest, far from what anyone in the west has tried, it works marvelously. Understand daaahling malaka, maaahvelously! LOL

    And ummmm….if I may instruct our dear supreme intellect, East Germany was sectioned off by the Communists of the Soviet Union, remember that? The Nazis were the ones who lost part of Germany thanks to the war, understand? Hahaha

  77. Cyd
    October 4, 2009    

    Oops, an html flub. Should read…

    I don’t have any problem in figuring out who is the idiot. If you think that East Germany’s border policy was acceptable, then go fuck yourself, you little Nazi. You are just a shitbag.

    That is simply another nail in your “idiocy” coffin, idiot. Your grand, universal “truism” have only shown you to be a shallow, lightweight thinker and not anyone to be taken seriously. Of course border enforcement works and when applied in earnest, far from what anyone in the west has tried, it works marvelously. Understand daaahling malaka, maaahvelously! LOL

    And ummmm….if I may instruct our dear supreme intellect, East Germany was sectioned off by the Communists of the Soviet Union, remember that? The Nazis were the ones who lost part of Germany thanks to the war, understand? Hahaha

  78. HOMELAND SECURITY
    October 4, 2009    

    As most of the migrants from Mexico are Maja and other indians ya shouldn’t talk about illegal migration but an illegal border.
    What a fucked reality where people can’t travel in their own country!
    Free America!
    HOMELAND SECURITY
    fighting terrorism since 1492

  79. Cyd
    October 5, 2009    

    As most of the migrants from Mexico are Maja and other indians ya shouldn’t talk about illegal migration but an illegal border.
    What a fucked reality where people can’t travel in their own country!
    Free America!
    HOMELAND SECURITY
    fighting terrorism since 1492

    Man, this website is a magnet for all the internet wackos and disgruntled.

    I’m sure as soon as documented proof for this territorial claim is provided, the US government will come to your tax free casino, pry you away from your bottle and allow you to reclaim your land. Though do remember, peyote induced visions and smoke signals do not qualify as evidence. Thanks and take care!

  80. HOMELAND SECURITY
    October 5, 2009    

    As before 1492 no Europeans lived in America – except may be from some Wandans – it’s not necessary to proof who is the “owner” of this land. All is INDIAN LAND!
    As american judges sentence Indians with prison for not speaking english to the court here is simply a language problem. And to ask for (white) “documented proof” sounds just like some christian “sources” of cannibalism in areas they needed a good reason regarding christianization. Just wait a few years and you can use google earth for smoke signals 500 years ago telling about stinking of disease analphabets who rape big “dogs” to be mobile…

  81. Cyd
    October 5, 2009    

    I’d love to spend time deciphering whatever you were trying to say, however, why bother?

    Needless to say, a nomadic existence on a territory does not automatically equate to ownership. That is usually done by contracts, verbal or written. Certainly, there is no evidence that “native” Americans had any written contracts and I am not sure of any verbal contracts as well.

    Just as importantly you state…

    As before 1492 no Europeans lived in America – except may be from some Wandans – it’s not necessary to proof who is the “owner” of this land. All is INDIAN LAND!

    You sure about that?

    N. America’s settlers may have crossed Atlantic

    November 2, 1999
    Web posted at: 8:42 AM EST (1342 GMT)

    SANTA FE, New Mexico (AP) — In a radical new view of pre-history, two prominent archeologists say North America’s first inhabitants may have crossed the icy Atlantic Ocean some 18,000 years ago from Europe’s Iberian Peninsula.

    The theory, presented at a weekend conference, is at odds with the long-held notion that the continent’s first settlers came across a land bridge from Asia.

    The conventional view typically depicts wandering cavemen wrapped in animal hides and lugging enormous spears, crossing the land bridge from Asia to hunt woolly mammoths.

    Archeologists say some nomads almost certainly made their way into Alaska and found an ice-free highway down into the continent some 13,500 years ago. Their culture has been named Clovis for their distinctive weapons that have been found in digs across the continent.

    But according to the new theory, the continent’s first inhabitants may have crossed the Atlantic more than 18,000 years ago from Europe’s Iberian Peninsula — the area that is now Spain, Portugal and southwestern France.

  82. Tin Foil Hat Man
    October 6, 2009    

    Homeland security is right! I see those black helicopters circling the area every night, and the only thing that protects me is the tin foil hat I made out of aluminum foil.

    Of course, I also listen to the Art Bell show (Coast to Coast) on the internet. It talks about all the things that “Homeland Security” says. Of course, “Martian anal probes” are also the topic of discusson on this show too somtimes.

    Conspiracy! Damn Columbus! It’s all his fault!

  83. Xenos
    October 6, 2009    

    Although the moral justification for “ownership” of land, and the “nation-state” as the proud possessor of its traditional detached house with accompanying garden, etc. is always made, the historical evidence is clear. The land is owned by the people/tribe with the biggest and most violent army. Israel is the exception, since the League of Nations and USA did their dirty work for them.

  84. HOMELAND SECURITY
    October 7, 2009    

    First of all: Not all indian nations were nomads. Most of the nations close to the seaside lived in villages. Most of the tribes we know today were deported or forced to leave their homelands and ended up as “nomads”. On totems (in the northwest) and buffalo-skins you will find enough “evidence” telling their genesis. As most indians wouldn’t call themselves “owner” there can’t be any status in an euro-centristic way, so this land still belongs to the “nomads”.
    There were many “verbal” and other “contracts” made to allow to use the land but not to own it. All these contracts were broken by the europeans.
    Where are the contracts to proof the ownership for Greece and other european nations?
    If colonization is legal then migration too and good luck that it’s only migration not colonization!

  85. Xenos
    October 7, 2009    

    Homeland: all of European territorial boundaries were determined by warfare and have nothing to do with contracts. Globally, this is also true.

    In Africa and the Middle East, many nomadic tribes have had their traditional lands and patterns of life destroyed by the European-style nationalistic territories that have emerged in the last century. It is not only about colonisation, it is also about mentality: we Europeans have a lot to answer for, in destroying entire cultures and civilisations.

  86. Post Disagreement
    October 8, 2009    

    you northern europeans…greece did not have colonies

  87. Native American
    October 8, 2009    

    They are not Indians, they are called Native Americans. Please do not insult them as you would not call (Roma “Gypsi”; or African-Americans “Colored”) etc. Let’s keep the terms proper.

  88. HOMELAND SECURITY
    October 8, 2009    

    So Leonard Peltier is defending his homeland as a member of a self-insulting organization: American Indian Movement. Check for “500 Nations” or “First Nations”!

  89. John
    April 1, 2010    

    It has been interesting and worrying to read the above thread up to this point.

    Racism is the belief that one or more races are intrinsically superior to one or more others. In other words, that some human beings are intrinsically superior to other human beings. This is “racism” and of course it is abhorrent.

    Racism is NOT the belief that a people of one culture and identity should preserve that culture and identity by excluding from it persons from other cultures. That is NOT racism – though many on this blog mistakenly belief that it is and appear to think they can fling the word “racist” around accordingly.

  90. ANNA
    September 8, 2011    

    YES!
    They are. No disscuss about it.

  91. Malakas
    July 10, 2012    

    The only time you see 100% no racism is when there is only one homogenous race and the only exceptions are one or two foreigners as travellers, diplomats, etc

    anything but not the human race

  92. end of the world.
    September 27, 2014    

    2 dreams

    The only time you see 100% no racism is when there is only one homogenous race and the only exceptions are one or two foreigners as travellers, diplomats, etcRacism is the belief that one or more races are intrinsically superior to one or more others. In other words, that some human beings are intrinsically superior to other human beings. This is “racism” and of course it is abhorrent.

    Racism is NOT the belief that a people of one culture and identity should preserve that culture and identity by excluding from it persons from other cultures. That is NOT racism – though many on this blog mistakenly belief that it is and appear to think they can fling the word “racist” around accordingly.

    vs.

    this world belongs to us together, one human race. no races, no to racism, no oxymoronic racism and sugar-coated hate in lyings.

    i choose the latter as my extreme dream. the first are hate begins with races. end of the world.

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