The only thing necessary for the persistence of evil is for enough good people to do nothing

Incitement to Violence Endorsed

I have written about the Plevris trial several times on this blog. Mr. Plevris is a “writer” and

I declare from the outset that I am a Nazi and a fascist, racist, anti-democratic and am an anti-Semite

(From his book “Jews – The whole truth”)

For background from this blog, please read here, here and here
He was taken to court for incitement to racial hatred and violence against the Jews. I repeat here some of the words from his book:

The Nazis were well aware of the Jewish plans and decided, as I describe elsewhere, to remove the Jews from Europe. And they acted quite rightly, in my opinion. Ridding Europe of Jews is mandatory, because Judaism is a threat to the freedom of nations

Jew (by religion) and human are contradictory meanings; one rules out the other

That’s what the Jews need. That’s all they understand. To the firing squad within 24 hours. Wake up. The perfidious Jews are digging the grave of nations. Wake up and throw them in as they deserve

Ridding Europe of the Jews is necessary because Judaism poses a threat to the freedom of Nations

I constantly blame the German Nazis for not ridding our Europe of Jewish Zionism when it was in their power to do so

And now the time has come for us to call the Jew by the name he deserves…… He is the sub-human Jew!

It is the fault of the civilized world that tolerates the international parasites that are called Jews… the time for retaliation has come…

My book, which you are now reading, is simple proof that we are not afraid of the Jews. We scorn them for their morality, their religion, and their acts, which together prove that they are sub-human

Mark my words. This time there will be no kind German Nazis to gather up the Jews and send them to Madagascar, but Knights of the White Apocalypse. I imagine them galloping, swords unsheathed, on golden steeds of death

Free yourselves from Jewish propaganda that deceives you with falsehoods about concentration camps, gas chambers, ‘ovens’ and other fairy tales about the pseudo-holocaust…

On March 27, 2009, he was found NOT guilty on three of the four counts of racial hatred and violence against the Jews, two of them overturning previous guilty verdicts.

The Central Board of Jewish Communities in Greece issued a press release that expresses

its disappointment and amazement at the decision of the Athens Court of Appeals in acquitting the modern-day advocate of Nazism in Greece, K. Plevris, against whom an ex-officio prosecution was brought on the basis of anti-racist Law 927/79.
This decision saddens, perplexes and causes concern among citizens of a modern democratic society as a self-confessed advocate of Nazism and racism remains unpunished though he not only distorts proven historical evidence, but even worse, uses his pen to incite hatred and provoke discrimination and violence against citizens of Greece and Europe

Furthermore…

Expressing the resentment of the Greek Jewry upon this court decision, the Central Board of Jewish Communities in Greece decided not to be represented at the European Symposium “Building together the Future of Europe”, to be held next Monday in Brussels, given that theoretical analysis and statements made by Greek MEPs on the denunciation and condemnation of anti-Semitism are meaningless since the Greek Courts characterize as a “scientific work” a defamatory, antisemitic book in which Jews are called “sub-human” and are directly threatened with the “re-opening of the crematoria in Auschwitz”.

The Greek Jewry believes that the fundamental constitutional right of the Freedom of Speech has nothing to do with the direct threats, the insults, and the incitement to racial hatred and violence against the Jews that K. Plevris includes in his book.
This principal was not endorsed by the Greek Courts which reached a verdict that protects not the Freedom of Speech but a self-proclaimed anti-semite and a neo-nazi, a verdict that gives credit to an abusive, racist and defamatory book

I am appalled by the decision of the Appeals court. They seem to have pandered to Plevris’s attacks and counter-attacks. I applaud and support the efforts of the Greek Helsinki Monitor and the Jewish community in Greece to bring this sad, ridiculous but dangerous man to trial.

Today, only one anti-Semitism appeal outstanding of a neo-Nazi paper for one phrase:

Thank God, less than 1500 Jews have been left in Thessaloniki

From the Greek Helsinki Monitor (GHM)

These developments have confirmed one thing GHM has been saying for many years but had hoped the day wouldn’t have come to prove how correct that was: that anti-Semitism and more generally racism is deeply entrenched in Greek society and widely tolerated. Unlike other EU countries where it is an extreme phenomenon and is regularly condemned, as shown also by current EP efforts to prevent Le Pen from chairing the opening session of the new EP in July. GHM has been told by so many that that position of their was extreme

I will keep you updated but don’t hold your breath…
Very, very sad.

UPDATE: The Anti-Nazi Initiative have also covered this case on their website and they have included more quotes from the book. For those who think I didn’t post enough proof of his incitement to hatred and violence, here are some more:

The civilized world is to blame that tolerates those international pests called Judeans… the time of retaliation has come…

The criminal behavior of the Jews explains the Nazis’ deeds against them, and more than that, it justifies them

The history of the humankind will hold Adolf Hitler responsible for the following: He did not rid Europe from the Jews while he could

We despise the Jews for their morality, for their religion, for their deeds, which all prove that they are sub-humans

(Underneath Auschwitz photo): They rightly preserve the camp (Auschwitz) at a good condition, because nobody knows what might happen in the future

I cannot bear to see the murderers, bandits, rapists, oppressors, pests, corruptors, sappers of the ruffian Jewry, slandering the superior National-Socialists

The ??KLON B was nothing more than a poisonous gas that was used to clear the concentration camps from insects……all the rest are fairytales of propaganda

The Jewish corpse in the case of Auschwitz was proved absolutely false from the beginning

Get rid of the Jewish propaganda, that deceives you with concentration camps, gas chambers, ovens and other fairytales of the pseudo-holocaust

Let me also state once again for those who seem unable to grasp the concept:

THIS IS NOT AN ISSUE OF FREEDOM OF SPEECH

IT IS A CASE ABOUT THE VIOLATION OF THE ANTI-RACIST LAW 927/79

Plevris was tried under that law and previously found GUILTY and handed a 14 month sentence (suspended pending appeal). As far as I can see, he is still guilty but he has friends in high places. He is a lawyer himself so he knows the game. Please note that I posted links to the original verdict and the counter-attacks and lawsuits that he and his team filed on the people who brought the case to court.

Technorati Tags: , plevris, , , , ,

55 Comments

  1. Stassa
    March 31, 2009    

    Mark my words. This time there will be … Knights of the White Apocalypse. I imagine them galloping, swords unsheathed, on golden steeds of death

    I’m sure he breaks out his Playmobil and enacts the scene when he says that.

    It’s not funny. It’s depressing. And it came within weeks of the decision of the Areios Pagos on the case of the HIV positive man. Skata.

  2. March 31, 2009    

    It’s not funny. It’s depressing

    I know. It really isn’t funny.

    I’ve been trying to get my head around this all day (in between listening to meaningful music to soothe my soul !)

    Playmobil, Lego or stuff made of cardboard. No difference. He’s still a sad and dangerous man.

    it’s hard to report this stuff sometimes…

  3. Michael Scowcroft
    March 31, 2009    

    It’s unnacceptable that a man like that is allowed to spout their hate-speech freely in a European country.
    It’s even worse when European politicians make similar anti-semitic remarks:

    “European Left demonises Israel”:

    Anti-semitism on the rise in ‘tolerant’ Britain

  4. antinazi
    March 31, 2009    

    ?????????? ??? ?????????????? ???????????? http://www.antinazi.gr

    ?????????? ????????!
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    – «???? ????? ?? ???????? ???? ??????????, ??????, ???????, ????????, ?????????????? ???????? ???????? ?? ??????????? ???? ????????? ?????????????????»

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    – «? ??????? ???????????? ???? ????????? ??? ???????? ????????? ?? ????? ??????????»

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    ??????? ??? ??? ???? ???????????!

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  5. patsina koman
    April 1, 2009    

    i have read this book “??????? ??? ? ???????” “Jews the whole truth”. It is based on the arguments of the historical revisionists. You cannot judge this book(1400 pages) by quoting 5-6 sentences because you get a totally different picture of it… The judges read it and found all the historical documents that prove the following:
    1) the sionists wrote the protocols
    2) the holocaust (of 6 million jews)is a hoax, about 300.000 died of natural causes…
    3) the sacred jewish book of Talmud incites to violence and racism (for example EBEN-HA-ESER 6,8 “any woman that is not jewish is a whore”)
    Luckily there is still freedom of speech in Greece…

  6. Michael Scowcroft
    April 1, 2009    

    patsina koman,

    Historical revisionism is a perfectly reasonable concept – historians are constantly revising and updating their understanding of history as new information and knowledge becomes available.
    But when it comes to Holocaust Revisionism, that’s where i think the line should be drawn. There are a great many people still suffering from the tragic events of the Holocaust and to have people implying that the Holocaust simply didn’t happen is not only hurtful to the memory of dead loved ones but it is also against the law in most countries.

    Freedom of Speech or Hate Speech?

    http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6933545879703999426&q=source%3A003014495783760343985&hl=en

  7. Stassa
    April 1, 2009    

    Patsina,

    Plevris calls the SS “heroic”. Remember the SS? The German army that occupied Greece in ’40? You really think that’s a guy whose reading of history you can take seriously?

  8. Stassa
    April 1, 2009    

    DD: it’s harder for me to read it. Greece is my country. It’s gone to the dogs and I can’t even accuse those bloody foreigners… it’s us who made it san ta moutra mas.

    I am so not optimistic right now.

  9. Post Disagreement
    April 1, 2009    

    Have we considered the possibility that whats needed is more speech not less speech.

    Perhaps more dialogue is needed between leaders of the main faith communities to respond to this man.

    Perhaps its better to have people open about their true feelings rather than perhaps lurking or being in the shadows.

    I disagree with this man in many ways. But criticizing Judaism should be permitted as any belief system should be fair game for that.

    He goes well beyond that though. In fairness I have not read his book so I do not know what else he said and any other context.
    However, its clear he has gone far away from just criticizing culture and beliefs or simply the actions of the state of Israel.

    Ironically, he mirrors the attitudes of the Jewish Fundamentalist extremists except his venom is directed at Jews rather than at Palestinians.

  10. Michael Scowcroft
    April 1, 2009    

    Post Disagreement, do you mean that we need more people like David Cole?

  11. patsina koman
    April 2, 2009    

    read the Talmud first or take a tour around the west coast or gaza and there you will see where the line should be drawn… The revisionists are not implying, they prove that the holohoax did not exist… if you want to see hate crimes take a look at the way jews treat the Palestinians…

  12. patsina koman
    April 2, 2009    

    Stassa,
    its clear that you havent read the book (or any book of Kostas Plevris whatsoever…)so you are driven to the wrong conclusions. Metaxas also admired the Axis armies BUT he decided to fight them…
    P.S. the german army occupied Greece in ’41… Come back on September for a re-examination…

  13. Post Disagreement
    April 2, 2009    

    Michael..hm, well I do not know that much about him except the few minutes of the clip I watched..I think you misunderstood my post.

    I mean non Gov institutions should be dealing with this issue, like civic, religious, humanist, etc organizations media etc.
    rather than a government imposing thought crimes and speech laws..althouhg in this case he is inciting to violence (plevris) not by holocaust revisionism or denial but by the other things he says. and that is unacceptable. in a civil society…but I would prefer a church leader or community activist speak out or media then get the government involved to decide whats incitements because that power can easily be abused.

    Supposing I oppose the EU, I could be a hate criminal / thought criminal.

    Did you read 1984 by George Orwell?

    I do think there is valid critique of Judaism (and other religions as well) and there are some questionable things about the holocaust story but I am not a historian or expert.
    I am sure that many people suffered regardless both Jewish and non.

    See people can use Plevris and say we need hate crime and thought and speech crime laws and then anybody who criticizes whether out of malice or not Judaism as a religion, the actions of Israel, etc..can be brought up on charges. So, its one extreme or the other.. there has to be a balanced midle where all views are permitted but certain line drawn when actual call to violence is made.

  14. Stassa
    April 3, 2009    

    I’ve read both this magnum opus and “Kinaidoi”. You’re Greek, right? Have you ever heard of “to saranda?”

    Bored now.

  15. Stassa
    April 3, 2009    

    Oh and btw, my paternal grandfather is from kalavryta. Was that a “holohoax” also? Was it the fault of the andartes maybe? Of course that was not the Waffen SS, it was the Wehrmacht. The invasion was however carried out by the SS division of the Leibstandarte.

    Oh, teach me mistress!!!

  16. Michael Scowcroft
    April 3, 2009    

    The video posted below states that 500,000 Greeks died of starvation not 300,000 as you said Konstantinos. Which is correct?

    Watch from 58:29

    http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6933545879703999426&q=source%3A003014495783760343985&hl=en

  17. patsina koman
    April 3, 2009    

    kosta,
    the court unanimously found plevris “non guilty” for inciting to violence… i am sure they know better than you because they read the book…

    If you can understand greek please see the next video clip of plevris answering on all your accusations about 2 years ago…

    You see, i have read all of Plevris books, i have them all in my library and i keep a huge record of plevris videos since 1990…

    P.S. About 520.000 Greeks died because of the Nazis Michael, you are right… Plevris is saying about it in the above video…

  18. Oath Taken
    April 3, 2009    

    That a Plevris follower would find their way to DD’s blog comes as no surprise. Nor does the fact that said follower would clearly exhibit the levels of stupidity required to believe Plevris’ crap. What I do find surprising however is that people are even bothering to argue with such a person – it would take an honorary degree from the Universidad Autónoma de Guadalajara for your arguments to even register with P.K.! Mercy! ;->

    So far as I’m concerned Plevris should have been imprisoned after his first trial and already shared a prison cell with a rapist (who hopefully likes to abuse old men, preferably a foreigner so that Plevris would feel multiply violated). But that’s because I believe in retribution and not rehabilitation. :-) BTW this is not incitement to violence – it’s free speech! :-)

    But seriously speaking kooks like Plevris get more attention by becoming heroes for “free speech” (as they will always present their case regardless of the specifics) than by freely publishing their crap. In that sense going after the old man through the judiciary is counterproductive. He’s not going to change and he adores the free publicity. Not to mention that the mental midgets that believe in him see vindication in the state prosecuting him.

  19. patsina koman
    April 4, 2009    

    oath taken,
    plevris imprisoned? now that’s a good one haha. well dream on…
    it is clear that you are a retard so there is no point in arguing with you any more…

    Kai eis alla me ugeia…

  20. patsina koman
    April 4, 2009    

    plevris was found non guilty unanimously . Its funny you said about socrates. Plevris wrote the first greek biography of socrates ( O ???????? ??????? ???? ??????) He also asked (in 2001) for the reopening of socrate’s case, so that he can finally be found innocent from the court of Athens after 2.400 years (399bc – 2001ad)

    Inside Plevris book you will find big parts of the Talmud and the old testament, the conclusion of the 4 leuchter reports,Robert Faurisson articles, writings against the jews from hundreds of famous men (Cicero, Nietzsche, Benjamin Franklin, Goethe, Shakespeare, Washington e.t.c), historic documents depicting the hate of the jews against the greeks and Palestinians throughout history etc etc.

    1) Who said that jews are to blaim for that?. But how come we are forced in our schools to learn about the jewish propaganda against the germans and not knowing the truth about our casualties. (you didnt know them either…)
    2) He denies that there was a genocidal plan made by the germans to kill the jews. That is a very big difference… Jews died just like Greeks, Polls and Russians died in the concentration camps, not because of gas chambers but mainly because of the poor living conditions. in 1944 the german army was almost starving to death, who would the german state look after firstly? their soldiers or the war prisoners? If there was a genocidal plan, the germans would shoot the Jews where they found them and not transport them throughout europe…
    Surely there have been atrocities against the jews, as you must also remember that hundreds of Greeks like me and you, were shot like dogs in Kalavrita and Distomo, but this doesnt at all show that there was a genocidal plan whatsoever…
    For genocides search in any encyclopedia for the word Turks…

    I am not against the jews but against the sionists who wish to control the world using their economic and political influence…

    P.S. About Talmud Bibliography, i am not in athens right now, you ll have to wait until Monday for the bibliography as i dont remember it by heart… Its in the Plevris book though, if you want to take a look at it…

  21. Stef
    April 10, 2009    

    it’s not only sad. it’s stupid. Plevris is rechewing medieval prejudice antisemitic ideas. sadly many Europeans hate Israelites without seeing the fact that they created a civilized oasis (apart from the wars with the uncivilized Arabs) in the middle of the desert. and not only uneducated people. supposedly leftist educated Europeans hate Jews in a conspiracy theory retarded way.
    i am Greek but i admire Jews.

  22. Stef
    April 14, 2009    

    i don’t agree. as i believe the 22 Arab countries that exist (since the Islamic expansions) should be sufficient to host the 350 millions of Arabs, and that the 10 million Jews should have 1 place to call home.

  23. Nemesist
    May 2, 2009    

    Hello to everyone!

    Hey, “Oath Taken”, that’s right, Pleyris is a man who has done a lot for Greek national ideals, that is why he has so many followers. He is a voice of TRUTH for Hellas. A bit of a biased truth, that is true, but WHO is not biased in our times? Oh, and about that joke you made of him going to prison where a 2metre tall giant negro man would rape him in the cell (am i exciting you with this version??), i believe you must have missed Pleyri’s tv shows. In one of them he clearly states that he has a gun in his office and any kind of threat he would face, would be met with lethal force! He was stating that, refering to other public figures from the nationalist movement of Greece who repeatedly have seen their properties (bookshops mainly) being burned to the ground by anarchists. So i do not believe anyone would ever succeed to geting that close to Pleyris. He is a man that would rather die before denying his beliefs, just like the nazi leaders after their defeat. It is called HONOR…

    Stef,

    “i don’t agree. as i believe the 22 Arab countries that exist (since the Islamic expansions) should be sufficient to host the 350 millions of Arabs, and that the 10 million Jews should have 1 place to call home.”

    Are you trying to convince us that you are Greek? An american may possibly fall for that, but I can tell you are Jewish, trying to create impressions here. The 10 million Jews should have a place to call home??? Right, homeless people should have a place to call home too, don’t you agree? I suggest you give them yours. What do you say?

    Anyway, i actually DO believe that Jews should have a place to call home, it is the place called Madagaskar! Just like the Nazis had brillianty planned it. They will go there and then everyone will be happy!

    Cheer up people!

  24. Clean up Greece
    May 2, 2009    

    Nemsist, what do you think about the way Greeks litter everywhere? When i go to Manhattan upper west/east side, South Kensington in London which are nice areas, i don’t see garbage or litter, but in GReece, whether kiffisia, kolonaki, or Ekali, Greeks are litter bugs and should be ashamed. maybe now you will say I’m bad and you are right, but how about making the country get some standards before trying to preach to us. At least America people and England people are clean and with manners. Can Greece people say same? I do not think a so. Just look outside and count how many time you see greek people litter, throw garbage, and then you feel sad like me tourist does.

  25. Michael Scowcroft
    May 3, 2009    

    Clean up Greece,

    I am absolutely convinced that you are our resident American racist called “George”. You have posted on this blog using many aliases, airing your offfensive views against Southern European people.
    But your racism follows such predicatable patterns and idiotic concepts that you cannot avoid being caught out. DD, please do an IP check and confirm that George and Clean up Greece are the same person – please warn racists such as George from using duplicate identities and spewing their racist filth on your blog. Southern European people on this blog shouldn’t be subjected to the kind of hate speech that emanates from racist gobshites such as George. Please bear in mind that hatemongers such as George are often discredited and shamed in blogs, so they have to invent new identities.

    The latest incarnation for George is “Clean up Greece” – he is pretending to be an “anti-litter conservationist” as a smokescreen to regurgitate his foul racist insults against Greeks.

    George, I don’t want to entertain racists but i have to address the moronic points you made, have you ever been to the UK? It is an absolute dump for litter. As for your other racist filth:

    “At least America people and England people are clean and with manners.”

    ^How can you allow such racist filth to be uttered on this anti-racism blog, DD?

  26. Nemesist
    May 3, 2009    

    Clean up Greece says:
    May 2, 2009 at 7:59 pm

    “Nemsist, what do you think about the way Greeks litter everywhere?”

    It is of course uacceptable. You see, a relatively poor country like Greece can still not afford to have very organised cleaning services. Large factories, etc, have been left unintended by the State to throw their garbage around, and people indeed have been showing indifferent mentality. All these are slowly changing for the better. They have been by the country’s limited economic resources AS WELL as a stupid indifference from a part of the inhabitants. A growing consience of environmental issues, MOTIVATES the new generations to CARE for these issues, hopefully.

    “When i go to Manhattan upper west/east side, South Kensington in London which are nice areas, i don’t see garbage or litter, but in GReece, whether kiffisia, kolonaki, or Ekali, Greeks are litter bugs and should be ashamed.”

    Well, i don’t like very much the people living in Ekali, Kolonaki or Kiffisia either, we agree on that, lol. Politicians, ‘artists’, fashion designers, movie starts and starlets, singers, etc. “Parasites” one could argue! What do they care about the environment in Greece? They can afford someone to clean their own house. I m more interested in the general pro-environment sentiment in Greece, in places like small towns, villages, etc, NOT in the centre of plutocrachy in Athens, get me? By the way, what is your business in these areas? Are you a foreign diplomat or something? A foreign agent perhaps???

    “maybe now you will say I’m bad and you are right, but how about making the country get some standards before trying to preach to us.”

    Well yeah, you are bad, like Michael Jackson used to sing, hehehe. I would like to get some standards for the country too, we re trying you know, maybe if we attacked and occupied a foreign country, like YOU DO, we could get the resources available to better plan our littering policies. But i don’t believe i “preached” to you about littering issues, did I? Lol

    “At least America people and England people are clean and with manners. Can Greece people say same? I do not think a so.”

    Well of course, you will stand for your own people. Let me share my opinions with you, valued tourist. Yes, english people especially, APPEAR to have many manners, especially by using the word “sorry” sometimes for no apparent reason, very frequently. I guess they subconsciously KNOW they have a lot to feel sorry for in their history, correct? Greek people may strike you as spontaneous and non mannerly at some times, but it is you know, the Meditteranean temperament. Now, i believe honesty in one’s behaviour is superior to HYPOCRISY in one’s behaviour, like being “polite” when you don’t really feel like it. That’s what i think. As for cleanlingness, there is an old proverb in Greek, which is “cleanlingless is the half of royalthy”, which means that a poor person for example is half royal if clean. I guess it don’t apply to public streets though, sorry!

    “Just look outside and count how many time you see greek people litter, throw garbage, and then you feel sad like me tourist does.”

    Oh come on, don’t be sad, i bet you can forget all about by the afternoon when you start your drinking marathon with your friends in a bar, and start engaging in your respectable and mature angloamerican fun games, like showing your assed in public, your tits, throwing up all over the streets, harassing the public with noise, breaking bottles, fighting with each other, raping your co-patriot women tourists, “sleeping” unconscious from the booze on public pavements while people pass over you, etc. Now, THAT’S a culture that at least respects littering regulations!! HAHAHAHA!!

  27. Nemesist
    May 3, 2009    

    “@Nemesist

    I’ve been called all kinds of things because of my interest in the Roma. Your personal comments about me and my motives have no effect whatsoever.”

    Alright, but i believe i have not made any comments about you and your motives in THIS post, maybe in other posts i have.

    “I have no reason or need to justify my involvement to you except to say (as is usually the way) that what you say about me is wrong.”

    Great! Just bear in mind that Greeks in general have, too, NO reason OR need whatsoever to justify their actions, and opinions about the Roma or about any other thing to someone like you, i believe you understand that.

    Although you can never really be a part of Greek society, since you are living here, i can suggest to you at least one reason you can feel proud for this current place you reside in: it is the only place on the planet where people such as Konstantinos Pleyris can publicly SPREAD so much TRUTH about issues that other ‘western’ societies tremble in ‘fear of the Jew’* in front..

    Keep up the good work! Cheers!

    *did you know this is an age-old expression in Greek? Bet you didnt..

  28. Michael scowcroft
    May 3, 2009    

    Also, my interest in the Roma was born here in Greece.

    When you lived in the UK, didn’t the deep-rooted and historic problems faced by traveller communities in the UK, effect you in the same way? I’m asking this because I was active in animal welfare projects in the UK and Portugal concurrently. When i wasn’t able to be attend or be active in projects or events, i kept abreast of latest developments and fundraisers in the UK through emails and blogs. Do you know much about or keep abreast with the problems faced by traveller communities in the UK?

  29. May 3, 2009    

    I stated a short ago that I needed to take a break from this blog because I am involved in other projects that are needing my full attention. I should probably close comments while I am not here all the time to check on the “discussion”. I might do this from tomorrow because I will not be here much.

    I just wanted to answer two points:

    @ Micheal Scowcroft
    I have checked IP address of some of the people who have been accused of being the same person. As far as I can see (and I haven’t checked all), they are not. George and Clean-up Greece have totally different IPs. There is NO way of telling if someone posts as a different person on a different computer or that they use “changing” IPs.

    Again, I am in the difficult position of deciding whether to check each and every comment before it gets through and preventing discussion on this blog at all (because I will only post those nice people who agree with me 😉 ) OR putting up with and responding to the dodgy and sometimes racist comments here.

    What would YOU do ?

    I would guess that most people would not even bother to comment here if they thought I would not post anything that wasn’t 100% on my side.

    Oh well, I’ll have to get back to that after this week. AGAIN.

    Also, my interest in the Roma was born here in Greece. I had the opportunity to meet some of the communities here and wanted to write about them. Really, it’s as simple as that.

    @Nemesist

    I’ve been called all kinds of things because of my interest in the Roma. Your personal comments about me and my motives have no effect whatsoever. I have no reason or need to justify my involvement to you except to say (as is usually the way) that what you say about me is wrong.

    I will really try and find some time tomorrow to answer some of the comments here more fully.

  30. Michael Scowcroft
    May 3, 2009    

    DD,
    To be honest, I think you’ve inadvertantly allowed British and American racists to spout their hate speech on your blog.

    “The conservatism and hypocrisy of blacks (not some blacks, but the majority) concerning homosexuality is incredible. This constitutes a sick and dishonest culture.”

    ^This comment was made on this blog but instead of the word “blacks”, the word “Greeks” was used.

    I’ve read alot of your blog recently and I’m afraid that many similar racist comments from Britis and Americans have been left uncriticised and unmoderated.

    “personal attacks like this are characteristic of Balkan peasants, which is what most Greeks are”.

    You can’t be expected to read everything on here DD, but even when you have identified an offensive generalisation or racist comment, I’m afraid that there has been a distinct lack of willingness to be particular critical of it.

    DD: “The English do have a bad habit of stereotyping people. We do and that is wrong. But that doesn’t give everyone else an excuse to do the same.”

    We Brits are champions of hypocrisy, especially when it comes to pointing fingers at alleged racists. When we point fingers at racists standing in front of us, we are usually standing in front of a mirror.

    British racism towards southern Europeans and Greeks is prevalent in this blog but unfortunately, it goes largely unpunished and uncriticised.

    And i’m not the only one to express my surprise at the lack of criticism against British racists in this blog :
    I don’t belive I read this. DD, you are a champion of anti-racism, and rightly so, why don’t you say nothing? This is unbelieable.
    P.S. I’m portuguese, I hate racism, I think all that fuss about hellenism it’s ridiculous (as if greeks are all the reencarnation of Plato and Alexander) and the complex of superiority of the phrase above, from an english, makes me sick
    .”

    What would YOU do ?

    I would make sure that when i spot a racist comment, i come down HARD on the person who made it. When i spot an infringement, I would apply the guidelines equally to Greek racists and non-Greek racists alike.

  31. ???? ??????????
    May 3, 2009    

    ‘fear of the Jew’*

    *did you know this is an age-old expression in Greek? Bet you didnt..

    That’s actually “Gia ton fovo ton Farisaion”, ie, “for the fear of the Pharisees”. Though it could be argued that all Pharisees were Jews, all Jews are not Pharisees and so the two are not synonymous, neither are they used as such in common-spoken Greek (not least because Jesus himself was a Jew).

    Michael Scowcroft,
    To compare “racism” (basically, cultural prejudice) against the Mediterannean people with actual racism (as in racial prejudice) against black people is insensitive and historically uninformed. Greeks have always been the dominant majority in our own country (at least since the Ottoman occupation) and were never sold to mass slavery, neither did we have to struggle against laws that deprived us of our most fundamental human and civil rights in the countries we were born in- not even in the countries we immigrated to. The cultural prejudice against Mediterranneans by Anglosaxons has nowhere near the potential for harm that the racial prejudice shared by all Caucasian peoples against African people has. To compare the two is to trivialise racism.

    Also, I must say that as a recent reader of this blog, I am taken aback by the way you criticise Devious Diva’s choices on what to post, what comments to allow from what posters, its title and so on. You come across as patronising and you make me want to remind you that if you think she’s doing things wrong, you can always start your own blog and do it all right. I’m also not entierly sure you’d be so eager to show her the right way to do it if she was a guy. Just sayin’.

    Finally, if you are going to be a champion of the Greek people, as opposed to a stern critic of your own, I believe it would really do you good to live in Greece for a couple of yearsto get a better understanding of the issues you discuss. Greek society is as complex as any, and to simplify that complexity to “Southern Europeans are the warmest people” and “Greece is a small and poor country” is shortsighted at best. Culturally arrogant at worse.

    Nana Bouloukou

  32. Michael Scowcroft
    May 3, 2009    

    Nana,
    You are entitled to your opinion but you don’t know the British people like i know them. You are naively unaware of the creeping racism we are capable of, examples of which are littered throughout this blog.

    On the other hand, i have lived in Southern Europe and know Southern European mentality and hospitality and culture very well, i am knowledgeable and experienced enough to comment on the people and their culture. In fact, i can offer a qualified comment on both Brits and southern Europeans. Without reservation, the people of Greece, Portugal Italy and Spain (the countries we Brits nefariously like to call “P.I.G.S.” countries) are the most welcoming, the most hospitable warm and friendliest people i’ve ever come across.
    To have Brits on this blog make unchallenged offensive generalisations about these people is astoundingly hypocritical, culturally arrogant as well as downright racist. The fact that you have chosen to minimise and downgrade the racism against Southern Europeans is unfortunate – all racism is wrong and should be condemned equally, whether it’s against blacks or Asians or southern Europeans.

    If you have an aversion to criticising British racists on this blog, you have the right to stay silent and not speak about it, but please allow me my right to expose, challenge and criticise the sick people making racist comments on here.

    As for my comments about DD, i thought long and hard about writing what i did, but i think i owe it to myself and to her to be honest and open about my observations.
    DD does a wonderful job in highlighting human rights issues in Greece and if you read this blog, you’ll find that i’m a great supporter of the work she does. You’ll also find that she’s made of strong stuff. She’s dealt with nationalists, extremists and Greek racists – i’m sure she can take a little constructive criticism from me.

    “if you think she’s doing things wrong, you can always start your own blog and do it all right.”

    Your comments above remind me of the racists who say “if you don’t like this country, you can go back to where you came from”.
    if you truly value human rights, you shouldn’t want to get rid of people like me who expose and challenge racism in here, please don’t use the same argument as racists use towards people like DD. You should thank and support those who expose racism, not tell them to pack their bags and go preach somewhere else.

    Actually Nana, i think you are Xenos, the resident racist who I chased out of town after four years of spouting his racist filth on this blog. As DD says, an IP check will not be of any use to confirm my suspicions because IPs can be changed, but i’m well versed in the stinking racism of my fellow Brits and your last post reeks to high heaven. :)

  33. Michael Scowcroft
    May 3, 2009    

    Africans will continue begging for charity money whilst doing nothing to earn it. The amazing thing is that these people are actually proud of their inability to work, to think, or to get things to function properly.”

    “It is almost exclusively an African obsession that there can be no constraints on the freedom of speech, and that the outlawing of hate speech is a very bad thing.”

    “The fact is that Asians, uniquely in the civilised world, do not accept limitations on hate speech (even though there are laws against it): this is a cultural attribute.”

    “The conservatism and hypocrisy of Pakistanis (not some Pakistanis, but the majority) concerning homosexuality is incredible. This constitutes a sick and dishonest culture.”

    Chinese cultural values make Chinese likely to be homophobic, anti-immigrant or anti-semitic”

    “The characteristic of Polish peasants, which is what most Poles are, is there is no possibility to have a polite rational discourse. You will influence Polish policy only by humiliating and abusing the people who support it, in my experience.”

    ^Generalisations and offensive comments which Nana thinks are “acceptable”^.
    Just replace the words in bold with “Greeks” and everything is hunky-dory according to her. If these comments where made against any other group of people, we would rightly condemn them, but it seems that Greeks are fair game for this kind of racism on this blog.
    Instead of criticising the bigots who made these comments, she critices me for exposing them!

  34. ???? ??????????
    May 4, 2009    

    Michael Scowcroft,
    I am not “Xenos”, I’m Stassa. Devious Diva can confirm that my email, idinatas@yahoo.com is the same under both usernames. In general, I use both as the whim takes me; one is my actual name, the other an injoke you’re probably not getting. And in case you still doubt I am who I say I am, this is my blog. It’s in Greek, of course. To remind you of who I am, I am a Greek who lives, works and studies in the UK; I know very well of the xenophobic attitudes of your fellow Brittish and their prejudice against Mediterrannean people- so, far from “naively unaware” of them as you assumed.

    In general, I think you assume too much and know only very little of the things you discuss and that doesn’t help anyone. It’s been pointed out to you by Greeks before that racism is indeed a fact of life in Greece, but instead of listening when we speak about our culture, you go paranoid and try to find old enemies behind our words. This indicates to me you just have a chip on your shoulder and don’t really give a shit about what we have to say of ourselves, “warmest people you’ve ever come across” though we may be. You’re just the typical patronising, culturally arrogant Brit I’m used to meeting- the kind who nods sympathetically and tells me “it must be hard for you to speak English, what with it not being your language and all?”, and so on.

    I think you are a bit bongos to be honest. You are obviously obsessed with “defending” Devious Diva’s blog from “evil Brittish racists”. You also seem to think this blog is also yours in a way, and that you have any right to tell Devious Diva what to post, how to name it and who to allow to comment. If I were her, you’d be giving me the major creeps basically. In fact, you are already.

    And as about trying to make it seem that I find racist comments “acceptable”, that just goes to show: you’re not here to discuss racism, you just have an axe to grind.

  35. Michael Scowcroft
    May 4, 2009    

    Stassa/Nana,
    I would be careful about calling people “bongos” if i was you, especially since you fluctuate between two personalities.

    Stassa or Nana: I know very well of the xenophobic attitudes of your fellow Brittish and their prejudice against Mediterrannean people

    If you know about how racist Britons can be, why do you criticise me for challenging this racism when it rears it’s ugly head on this blog? Don’t you approve of challenging and exposing racist behaviour and comments?

    You’re just the typical patronising, culturally arrogant Brit I’m used to meeting- the kind who nods sympathetically and tells me “it must be hard for you to speak English, what with it not being your language and all?”, and so on.

    ^You’ve just described the Brits who are making racist comments against Greeks and southern Europeans on this blog! I’m the one who is exposing and challenging their racism and offensive generalisations like the you made in your post. I’ve defended southern European people against the kind of comments you’ve mentioned and attributed to me. I think you are confused.

    If you think that your example above is one of the the worst manifestations of racism in Britain, then you don’t know Britain at all and you are more naive than i thought.

    Racism is EMBEDDED in every facet of British culture and is much worse than you portray. It is the reason why many black-on-black crimes are often never solved, or blacks are targetted by police for stop-and-search on a disproportionate basis etc etc, it is ENDEMIC in our society – it may not be apparent to you, a Greek living for a few years in the UK, because racists don’t usually tell you to your face what they think of you – they usually wait until you leave or in their private family moments or circle of friends in the pub say what they really mean or come onto blogs such as this one where they can spout racist filth under anonymity.
    Most racist Britons are “covertly” racist, i.e. there are no signs in Hotel windows saying “no dogs, no blacks, no Irish” anymore. Racist sentiments are hidden away from “foreigners” like yourself but are still prevalent in UK society and often surface during the conduct of a job (like a Police investigation for example). Covert racism is the MOST dangerous form of racism since it bubbles underneath civil society and are only exposed when a forced enquiry about our institutions reveals the racism that we all know exists under the surface.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_Lawrence

    You also seem to think this blog is also yours in a way

    I believe this blog is “all of ours” in a way – i think DD will be the first to admit this. I don’t know how you operate your blog and if you allow criticism or not, but generally, shouldn’t contributors be able to offer our opinions, good and bad, about the blog we contribute to? Do you only allow approving comments and only operate a “pat-on-the-back” policy on your blog? I think you’re being rather selfish in attempting to dissuade constructive criticism or ideas which contributors may share with your royal highness.
    The people who really love and respect you and want the best for you are those who CRITICISE you – they criticise because they want you to avoid pitfalls – this is true of any loving family – that’s why there are often arguments.
    The friends who criticise, scrutinise or tell you when they think you are doing something wrong are the MOST VALUABLE friends you have and the ones who REALLY love you – they realise they’re putting friendship on the line by saying something which you might not approve of, but they DO IT ANYWAY because they are concerned that you may be doing something wrong or harmful to you.
    Those who say only what you want to hear are useless and not truly friends – they can’t be bothered to explain why something is wrong for you because it’s time consuming or they don’t want to risk the friendship by saying something that needs to be said. These people are PARASITES – these are the people you attract with your views on criticism. These are the sort of friends YOU KEEP. Now that’s creepy.

    As for your useless “grinding axes” and “chip on shoulders” comments, these idiomatic irrelevancies are usually the reserve of racists who want to derail the real discussion of racism – “blacks have a chip on their shoulder” (no doubt you’ve heard that one in Britain).
    Let’s cut the irrelevant crap – let’s cut to the chase – let’s talk about racism:

    Do you find these statements acceptable?

    “Africans will continue begging for charity money whilst doing nothing to earn it. The amazing thing is that these people are actually proud of their inability to work, to think, or to get things to function properly.”

    “It is almost exclusively an African obsession that there can be no constraints on the freedom of speech, and that the outlawing of hate speech is a very bad thing.”

    “The fact is that Asians, uniquely in the civilised world, do not accept limitations on hate speech (even though there are laws against it): this is a cultural attribute.”

    “The conservatism and hypocrisy of Pakistanis (not some Pakistanis, but the majority) concerning homosexuality is incredible. This constitutes a sick and dishonest culture.”

    “Chinese cultural values make Chinese likely to be homophobic, anti-immigrant or anti-semitic”

    “The characteristic of Polish peasants, which is what most Poles are, is there is no possibility to have a polite rational discourse. You will influence Polish policy only by humiliating and abusing the people who support it, in my experience.”

  36. Michael Scowcroft
    May 4, 2009    

    Breaking news for “Clean up Greece”:

    London is Europe’s ‘dirtiest city
    Our capital is the dirtiest and most expensive city in Europe, according to a new survey.
    http://www.marieclaire.co.uk/news/world/197755/london-europe-s-dirtiest-city.html

    So you can shove your disgusting comments up your dirty one:

    “in London, i don’t see garbage or litter, but Greeks are litter bugs and should be ashamed. ..how about making the country get some standards before trying to preach to us… At least America people and England people are clean and with manners.”

    Disgusting bigot.

  37. Stassa
    May 4, 2009    

    Michael Scowcroft,

    “I would be careful about calling people “bongos” if I was you, especially since you fluctuate between two personalities.”

    Yeah, well, if it takes a sock puppet to show you’re paranoid I think it’s worth it. How sad, in a way. In any case, if you could read Greek, besides knowing a thing or two about my country, you could also tell which is my actual name. Hint: it’s the one that sounds Greek. Oh wait, that’s the injoke.

    Now, the moment I disagreed with you, you started calling me “naive” and assuming that I haven’t lived enough in the UK to understand what you are talking about, even as you claim you know everything about my country and my people, without having lived in Greece for any time at all. Like I said you are patronising and arrogant, you keep exhibiting the exact same cultural prejudice of which you accuse those other posters you so valiantly fight.

    Also, you know what, I’ve had a few people try to tell me that they’re my best friend and they truely love me, not like those pesky hypocrites who just pretend to be my friends but don’t really care about me and blah blah. That’s what I said: creepy guy.

    You keep trying to push through assumptions about me, btw- that’s even creepier. You can’t even read my blog, can you? Obviously all those things you say about me come out of your head, to be polite.

    Finally, “this is all of ours blog”? Woa there cowboy! First of all, no it ain’t. It’s Devious Diva’s. People read this blog for her posts, not for your comments. She’s the one who puts all the effort in making those posts while all you do is bark away everyone you don’t like. So you don’t even think this is “our” blog, when you say “ours” what you really mean is “mine”.

    Like I said, why don’t you start your own blog? And why is that telling you to bugger off? You mean if you have your own blog you can’t keep commenting anywhere you like? But do you even read or comment on anyone else’s blog but Devious Diva’s?

    Yeah, creepy and sad.

  38. Nemesist
    May 4, 2009    

    —————————————————————-

    ‘fear of the Jew’*

    *did you know this is an age-old expression in Greek? Bet you didnt..

    That’s actually “Gia ton fovo ton Farisaion”, ie, “for the fear of the Pharisees”. Though it could be argued that all Pharisees were Jews, all Jews are not Pharisees and so the two are not synonymous, neither are they used as such in common-spoken Greek (not least because Jesus himself was a Jew).

    —————————————————————–

    Ehm, NO, it is ACTUALLY “For the fear of the Judeans”, “??? ??? ???? ??? ????????”. That is the only way this expression is used and has been used, in Greek.

    Jesus, was not “a Jew”, to believers he was/is the Son of God.

    The phrase we re talking about, used in common Greek is taken from the Bible, John 19,34. It refers to how Arimathaias, a believer, forgot about his “fear of the judeans” and went to Pilatus, to request the body of Christ, to wash it, clean it, give it a proper burial. From this initial source, we can say that the phrase refers to fear of evil ones, of evil doers (the ones who crucified Christ in the initial source).

    As for the physical origins of Jesus, many different theories exist actually, that he could be Roman, hellenized Jew, Philistine (Palestinian), etc. Not simply, “a Jew”…

    Another thing, “Miss” Nana Bouloukou. This is no way to speak to Mr. Scowcroft, a man who writes about justice to Greeks in this blog. What is wrong with you? Didn’t you take your hormones lately? It’s one thing to don’t like racism, and is another thing to pretend to not like racism, because you actually hate/despise a group of people (Greeks for example).

    Mr. Scowcroft, just want to point to you, that “Miss” Nana’s blog is in Greek, it has a title and a subtitle, both in Greek. Let me kindly give you a translation of these, so that you can at least know who you re talking to:

    Blog TITLE: “LIFE ON THE CURSED ISLAND”
    Blog Subtitle: “A transexual woman from Athens decides to give up on everything and emigrate to England. And how is life in modern Europe? The weather is terrible, the food sucks and people are illiterate. That’s what it’s like.”

    I hope that’s alright with you, eh “Stassa”?

    And England is NOT a part of Europe actually. It is an island to the northwest.

    ..not to mention that a transexual is NOT a woman. It is supposed to be a third sex or something, correct?

  39. Michael Scowcroft
    May 4, 2009    

    Stassa/Nana,

    Do you find these statements acceptable?

    “Africans will continue begging for charity money whilst doing nothing to earn it. The amazing thing is that these people are actually proud of their inability to work, to think, or to get things to function properly.”

    “It is almost exclusively an African obsession that there can be no constraints on the freedom of speech, and that the outlawing of hate speech is a very bad thing.”

    “The fact is that Asians, uniquely in the civilised world, do not accept limitations on hate speech (even though there are laws against it): this is a cultural attribute.”

    “The conservatism and hypocrisy of Pakistanis (not some Pakistanis, but the majority) concerning homosexuality is incredible. This constitutes a sick and dishonest culture.”

    “Chinese cultural values make Chinese likely to be homophobic, anti-immigrant or anti-semitic”

    “The characteristic of Polish peasants, which is what most Poles are, is there is no possibility to have a polite rational discourse. You will influence Polish policy only by humiliating and abusing the people who support it, in my experience.”

  40. Michael Scowcroft
    May 4, 2009    

    In the event of DD closing down discussions on her blog while she’s away, anyone wishing to continue the discussions can contact me via email here :

    micky_metal @ yahoo.co.uk (without the spaces)

  41. Oath Taken
    May 4, 2009    

    I wrote:

    So far as I’m concerned Plevris should have been imprisoned after his first trial and already shared a prison cell with a rapist (who hopefully likes to abuse old men, preferably a foreigner so that Plevris would feel multiply violated). But that’s because I believe in retribution and not rehabilitation. :-) BTW this is not incitement to violence – it’s free speech! :-)

    and the moron with a keyboard Nemesist interpreted that as:

    Oh, and about that joke you made of him going to prison where a 2metre tall giant negro man would rape him in the cell (am i exciting you with this version??)

    Quite obviously the idea of geriatric violent sex is one that excites him to have embellished it further with 2m tall negroes :-). All I mentioned is that it would be nice to double up the insult to Plevris by getting back at him on more than one front. :-> As I said I believe in retribution. And of course his claim of having a gun license is irrelevant – he would not have it in prison. Unfortunately he did not get sent to prison pending appeal…

    Regarding the rest of your drivel “???????? ?? ?????? ?? ????????”. Feel free to revel in the “Truth” from the honorary Ph.D. from the University of Guadalahara… I’d suggest you crawl back into the hole you crawled out of but the advice would be wasted…

    My main objections to DD (which I have expressed on more than one occasion) are:
    a) The tolerance to truly vitriolic generalizing libelous statements about Greeks (to avoid using the word “racist” that Stassa seems to interpret in its originally narrow meaning) from certain people (which have recently left thanks to the overzealous commenting by MS).
    b) The tolerance for erroneous information going on unchallenged (both in the main blog and in the comments) as well as a reliance on sources of dubious objectivity.
    c) The need to pontificate on all issues without bothering to really understand them – hence my nickname when she started a whole blog entry on the meaning “????? ??? ??? ???????” based on a dubious translation.
    d) The lack of a wider perspective: Talk about the Roma problems but instead of dismissing the concerns of their neighbors as racist opposition try and see things from their point of view: I still remember the time that she questioned as a hypocrite a local community organizer opposed to the melting of copper in Votanikos by the Roma. I guess she should be happy for the toxic fumes since they are caused by a disadvantaged group. Should parents not be concerned about the lack of immunizations for Roma children? Is the increased criminality close to the Afghan camp in Patras a constant statistical fluke that should not bother the nearby residents? Should their need to maintain a quality of life be irrelevant? And given that none of these problems are faced by the activists directly shouldn’t that be an issue?

    And all of the above (but mainly the last one (d)) have very unfortunate real-life political implications: There are indisputable – well maybe disputable by certain morons – everyday problems for Roma and (il)legal economic immigrants and asylum seekers. And they need to be dealt with in accordance with the law (even when it is really stupid law), basic humanitarian principles and common logic. At the same time there are is the local (mostly though in some cases it becomes country-wide) impact of these problems as well as problems caused specifically by Roma/immigrants etc.. By focusing on the one side only – and relegating the other side of the coin simply as racist reactions – what DD and others involved in pursuing human rights issues in Greece are doing is driving people in the arms of fanatical scum like Nemesist. If one’s concerns are invisible to all but the fascists guess who you are being pushed to embrace. I grew up in a post-junta Greece where most fascists were trying to hide their past and integrate in New Democracy’s right wing and a vocal few in EPEN and other ?????????? (minor parties) were the laughing stock of political life. And I got to see the immigration issues before all else drive that populist scumbag Karatzaferis to the Europarliament and then the Parliament itself, even after he openly accepted Voridi’s Hellenic Front in LAOS’ ranks doing away with any fig leaf of not being fascist.

    To give you an example, an aunt of mine in her late 80’s that harbors no feelings of superiority towards foreigners (she’s too uneducated to think in this manner) is afraid of them (immigrants have essentially taken over her neighborhood). While partly this is fear of the unknown, it’s more than that: She does not watch TV (doesn’t own one) to get all brainwashed by the sensationalist reporting – her fear is simply based on the fact that she lives the effects of the downturn in the neighborhood and also because the immigrants around her support each other as a block. You complain to your next door neighbor about the noise and a crowd shows up to intimidate you. Now I always try and present to her their angle of the story but the fact remains that I would not be surprised if she were to end up voting for LAOS if New Democracy and PASOK were to adopt DD’s perspective. And while DD is one person, her mentality is widely shared among activists. I doubt they have acknowledged how counterproductive it is.

    Having ranted on far too long I should reiterate that I do recognize that many of the issues DD brings forth need to be discussed and in many cases seriously dealt with. And in the grand scheme of things between the crap of the national fascists/socialists (Nemesist) and the horse manure of the internationalist nihilists (GHM & the like) people can choose neither. There is a healthy alternative in between.

  42. Nemesist
    May 4, 2009    

    Oath taken, how old are you, more than 50 i imagine, right?

    Trying REALLY hard not to be labelled by anyone as a national-something type of person, right?

    Listen, i really wish your aunty will get robbed and beaten to death by her “asylum seeking” neihbors, like it has happened to so many people in her age and condition. THEN, i d love to see what your healthy alternative would be. Talk is cheap when you are outside the “dance”…

    And by the way, i hope a democratic person like you, appreciates the triumph of Free Speech in a democratic country like Greece, right?

  43. Oath Taken
    May 4, 2009    

    Nemesist I’m not over 50 and I’m also not aware of any particular need of over-50s to disassociate themselves from fascist scum. It’s a matter of basic decency.

    ??? ??????? ??? (????? ???? ????? ?????????) ?? ??? ????? ??? ?? ??? ???? ?????? ?????????? ??? ?????????. I’m very much inside the dance – my neighbourhood is Patissia. What’s yours?

    As for my opinion on the free speech aspects could be found above:

    But seriously speaking kooks like Plevris get more attention by becoming heroes for “free speech” (as they will always present their case regardless of the specifics) than by freely publishing their crap. In that sense going after the old man through the judiciary is counterproductive. He’s not going to change and he adores the free publicity. Not to mention that the mental midgets that believe in him see vindication in the state prosecuting him.

    I will add his son to the part about the mental midgets; his abysmally poor performance vis-a-vis the kommitatzi trio on Hardavellas’ show was a disgrace to his supposed qualifications. Hell, even Velopoulos sounded more informed and spoke more convincingly – and to be topped by a goon like Velopoulos takes quite a lot of effort…

  44. Michael Scowcroft
    May 5, 2009    

    Let’s not get into who’s the creepier guy, let’s talk about racism. Please answer the simple question:

    Do you find these statements acceptable?

    “Africans will continue begging for charity money whilst doing nothing to earn it. The amazing thing is that these people are actually proud of their inability to work, to think, or to get things to function properly.”

    “It is almost exclusively an African obsession that there can be no constraints on the freedom of speech, and that the outlawing of hate speech is a very bad thing.”

    “The fact is that Asians, uniquely in the civilised world, do not accept limitations on hate speech (even though there are laws against it): this is a cultural attribute.”

    “The conservatism and hypocrisy of Pakistanis (not some Pakistanis, but the majority) concerning homosexuality is incredible. This constitutes a sick and dishonest culture.”

    “Chinese cultural values make Chinese likely to be homophobic, anti-immigrant or anti-semitic”

    “The characteristic of Polish peasants, which is what most Poles are, is there is no possibility to have a polite rational discourse. You will influence Polish policy only by humiliating and abusing the people who support it, in my experience.”

  45. Stassa
    May 5, 2009    

    Michael Scowcroft,
    You accuse me of racism? That’s thick. You’re the Englishman, you’re the one who’s been ingrained with racism by your horrible culture and all we Southern Europeans are the nicest people on earth and quite free of it. Like Nemesist below.

    But why would you need a “confession” from me if you really think I’m racist? Just make one up. It’s not like you haven’t already tried to put words in my mouth (yech) and present your assumptions about me as facts. Normally, my comments until now should give you your answer, but I spoke against you as a person and your way to get back at me is to twist my words to try and accuse me of racism. Clearly, you are very objective and care a lot about the truth, huh?

    Creepy, sad and sneaky…

    Nemesist,
    Ha ha, yeah, I’m sure everyone here is going to freak out to know there’s a traveli among them… ??? ???? ??????? ????????????? ??? ??? ??? ?? ???????????, ?????????…

    Ah, but you’re right about the fear of the Judeans. My bad there, definitely. I’m forgetting my Greek :(

  46. Stassa
    May 5, 2009    

    ???? ????????? ??? ?? ?????? ?? ?????? ??? Devious Diva… ????????, ??????.

  47. Stassa
    May 5, 2009    

    Right.

    Michael Scowcroft,
    I’ve let my Mediterrannean temperament take the better of me again (handy excuse innit?). I don’t apologise as I stand by what I said about you- I just rather I hadn’t, ’cause personal comments are neither here nor there and I didn’t want to start a flamewar with you. So I’ll leave it here.

    But. My point stands. What you do, when you compare the prejudice against Mediterrannnean people (“wogs”, “greasers” and so on) to that against people of colour is trivialising racism. Your argument, “if anyone said that about black people everyone would be up in arms” has been widely abused by all sides. It’s used by other minority groups to claim their own right to public recognition of the prejudice against them, sure, but it’s also used by some who accuse black people of reverse racism, or Jews of claiming the privilege of mourning for their dead and so on.

    And the thing is, it is never clear which point is being made at any time. Just because someone speaks about lgbt rights, for example, doesn’t mean they also care about racism- there’s nothing to say that “why can’t you say that of blacks but it’s OK to say about lgbts?” doesn’t really mean “shut up about the blacks already, we’re more important than them”. In fact, a lot of the time it’s exactly what it means!

    More to the point, why wouldn’t everyone be indignant if anyone spouted whatever racist trope we’re discussing against black people? And can’t we explain why it is so wrong to say certain things about anyone, without comparing apples and pears, as in lgbt people to people of colour or disabled people to working class people, or indeed Greeks to black people?

    Finally, yeah, it’s not OK to say those things of Greeks, but what’s the worse that happenned to Greeks as a people because of the undercurrent of anti-Meditarrannean racism in little England and northern Europe in general? An increase in tourists from the UK and Germany? Have you noticed, though, the humanitarian catastrophe going on for centuries now in Africa? Greeks may be insulted, or annoyed, or just confused when they find out Anglo people call us “PIGS” and so on, but that’s about it. What’s more, most of the discrimination against Greeks happenned in the past generations, when we emigrated abroad. Nowadays, try to tell Greeks of the discrimination against them and they’ll tell you “but… I’m white! How can you be prejudiced against me?”. People of colour on the other hand, don’t have an option to be unaware of prejudice against them for most of their lives, or until they go live abroad. It’s an everyday fact of their lives- not something they have to dig deep to realise with surprise.

    So there’s your answer: it’s not OK to say all that stuff about Greeks, but it’s not such a big deal. Whereas, to say the same things of people of colour is a big deal. The former makes you a bit of a twit- the latter, a racist. Now who do you think is the biggest threat?

  48. Michael Scowcroft
    May 5, 2009    

    Stassa/Nana,

    That’s three times you failed to answer a simple question.

    You cannot answer the question because your answer will reveal that you are one of the worst forms of bigot: a selective racist. In this case, you’re selectively racist against Greeks.

    You are not offended by derogatory comments and offensive generalisations when they are made against Greeks and southern Europeans, but when they are made against Chinese, Africans or Pakistanis you will find the SAME comments offensive and unnacceptable.
    You are in a contradictory position, so you avoid the question altogether. After all, you don’t want to be seen as the hypocrite and selective racist that you are.

    If you lack the moral courage to confront bigotry and racism on this blog, please allow others who possess the moral fortitude to criticise ALL racists and ALL racism on this blog, whether it’s against Greeks, blacks or Chinese.
    ALL RACISM IS WRONG and deserves to be condemned equally and unequivocally.

  49. Michael Scowcroft
    May 5, 2009    

    Stassa/Nana,

    There is very clear and obvious racism against Greeks on this blog. I see the same kind of vile racism from ex-pats in Portugal every summer – i grew up with the same racism in the UK, it hasn’t changed one jot.

    Racism is not something we should excuse, minimise or justify -it should be criticised and condemned in ALL cases and in the strongest terms.

    Not content with explaining how racism against Greeks can be justifiable, you criticise and condemn those people who confront and challenge racism and prejudice, and that’s unforgivable. I would expect a person who has walked in your shoes to recognise the importance of challenging prejudice and confronting bigotry, and i don’t mean to sound patronising either.

  50. Nemesist
    May 6, 2009    

    “Nemesist,
    Ha ha, yeah, I’m sure everyone here is going to freak out to know there’s a traveli among them…”

    ? didnt say that people in here would freak out if they know they re talking with a trancesexual. YOU say so. I just thought that someone should be aware who he/she is talking to. Pretty sneaky of you though, dont you think?

    ” ??? ???? ??????? ????????????? ??? ??? ??? ?? ???????????, ?????????…”

    ?? ????? ??? ????? ??? ??? ????? ????? ???? ??? ???????????; ?? ??????? ???????? ????; ??? ????? ????? ? ?????? ??? ???????????? ???. ???? ?? ??????? ??? ??????? ?? ????? ???, ??????-??????????? ???????????????? ??????? ???? ???????? ?????????. ??? ?????? ?? ?? ??????? ??? ??????;

    “Ah, but you’re right about the fear of the Judeans. My bad there, definitely. ”

    Yes, of course i am right. But you see, i resort to Logic and facts when i speak i do not speak out of my ..ass. Probably because it is only used in a one-way manner, contrary to other people’s.. know what i mean? 😉

    “I’m forgetting my Greek”

    Don’t get me wrong now, but i believe that is a GOOD thing. You can forget about Greeks too, altogether. We will not miss you, Stassa…

    And one question. Apart from anatomical procedures, do you believe that trancesexuals should be considered a third sex, or as women? Just asking for your opinion.

    “Finally, yeah, it’s not OK to say those things of Greeks, but what’s the worse that happenned to Greeks as a people because of the undercurrent of anti-Meditarrannean racism in little England and northern Europe in general? An increase in tourists from the UK and Germany?”

    Well of course, Stassa thinks that way, resulting obviously from all the REJECTION Stassa had to put up with living in Greece. Rejection for what Stassa is. But, Stassa, although i am not the one to judge if what you have done with yourself is right or wrong, it sure is abnormal, by natural standards. Rejection can be justifiable in that light.

    Whats the worse that happened to Greeks because of that racism??? Not that Stassa would care about Greek history, but from the time of the Crusade that destroyed Constantinople (1204) to the infiltration of Greece in the 1800s to the way strong and rich western countries try to run Greece and Southern Europe in modern times and cheap booze tourism, it all comes down to the racism and hostility against Greeks from these western powers. And you say its no big deal? Unforgivable, “Stassa”…

  51. stassa
    May 6, 2009    

    Yes, of course i am right. But you see, i resort to Logic and facts when i speak i do not speak out of my ..ass. Probably because it is only used in a one-way manner, contrary to other people’s.. know what i mean?

    Yeah I know, it means you fart out of your mouth. Boo-ring.

  52. Peep
    May 8, 2009    

    Stassa your comments are nice. I am afraid to post because some people here twist words, and it’s nice to have someone stand up to them. I’m British myself and it’s sad to see self-hating racist people. Please keep up the battle. You have the intellect and wits that some of us others quietly reading in the background lack. We’re with you sister.

  53. Michael Scowcroft
    May 8, 2009    

    ^In other words, Peep is possibly a former poster who has appeared on this blog only to make brief condescending pot-shots at neaderthal southern European savages, and who has now been forced into the background because someone challenged his/hers racist views about southern Europeans.

    Peep, i take it you’re addressing your remarks to me. Why would you call me “self-hating”? Because i dare to criticise our racism-ridden society? I don’t “hate” anyone (least of all myself :) )- the people who come closest to the “hate” emotion would be covert racists and little Englanders who derive pleasure from pointing fingers at what they call greasy, lazy, Spics, Bubbles, Eye-ties and Degos.

    You’re not one of these Brits are you? If you aren’t, you have nothing to fear.

    Non-racist and fair-minded people like you shouldn’t feel intimidated, it’s the racists who will have a hard time on here, so please feel free share your views on this blog,

  54. Nemesist
    May 8, 2009    

    Stassa, you havent answer my question. Why?

    At least tell me, is it because you dont want to answer it, because it offends you?

    Or, is it because you dont think of me as worthy or receiving an answer from you?

    By the way, you could never beat Michael Scowcroft in an argument, i guess you already know that..

  55. July 16, 2009    

    Greece will be examined by UN CERD on 10 and 11 August 2009. Following a GHM-MRG-G report to CERD (http://www2.ohchr.org/english/bodies/cerd/cerds75.htm) the Committee sent the following questions to Greece. After Greece received the questions, a Supreme Court Prosecutor on 2 July 2009 filed a motion for cassation on behalf of the law against the Plevris judgment. If accepted by the Supreme Court, it will remove the judgment from the case law but wont have any impact on Plevris (if the latter was desired a proper motion for cassation had to be filed 15 days after the publication of the judgment ie 9 June). Note that the questions include the whole array of the anti-racism law and even the banning of neo-Nazis.

    COMMITTEE ON THE ELIMINATION
    OF RACIAL DISCRIMINATION
    Seventy-fifth session
    3 to 28 August 2009

    QUESTIONS BY THE RAPPORTEUR
    IN CONNECTION WITH THE CONSIDERATION OF
    THE SIXTEENTH TO NINETEENTH PERIODIC REPORTS OF
    GREECE

    http://www2.ohchr.org/english/bodies/cerd/docs/AdvanceVersions/CERD-C-GRC-Q-19.doc

    Article 2

    1. Please provide updated information on the application of Law 927/1979 “on punishing acts or activities aiming at racial discrimination”, including the number of convictions and the sentences imposed. What measures have been taken to ensure that acts of violence against members of ethnic minorities are always promptly and effectively investigated and prosecuted?

    2. Please provide information on measures taken for the implementation of article 79, paragraph 3 of the Criminal Code, which states that when a crime is motivated by racial, national or religious hatred, this shall be considered an aggravating factor. Please also provide examples of cases in which this article has been applied.

    3. Please provide statistics on “incidents of discrimination or unlawful use of force” by the police mentioned in paragraph 158 of the State party report, insofar as they relate to the scope of the Convention, and indicate what sanctions, if any, were imposed for such crimes.

    Article 4

    4. Please indicate whether organizations and groups promoting or inciting racial discrimination in the State party, including Neo-Nazi groups, have been legally banned and their organizers prosecuted.

    5. Kindly provide information on the monitoring of compliance with Presidential Decree 100/2000, which provides that “television stations may not broadcast programs which incite hatred between citizens on the grounds of their different race, religion, citizenship or gender”.

    6. In light of the provisions of article 4 of the Convention, which require that the dissemination of ideas based on racial superiority or hatred be punished by law, please comment on the recent reversal by a Greek appeals court of a 2007 conviction in the case of Costas Plevris, for the publication of his book “The Jews – The Whole Truth”. Is the book still available and sold in the State party?

    Article 5

    7. Please provide statistical information regarding the participation of members of ethnic minorities in central and local State bodies, in the police force and the judiciary and, in the case of inadequate representation, on measures adopted to improve the situation.

    8. According to the independent expert on minority issues, Roma children did not have full and equal access to education at the time of her visit in September 2008. Please provide clarification on the concrete level of integration of Roma children in the education system and on measures taken to eliminate discrimination against Roma children in school due to stereotypes, their lack of knowledge of Greek or the unavailability of teaching in Romani. Please also provide information on the results obtained by the project for the education of Greek-Roma pupils mentioned in paragraph 69 of the State party report.

    9. Please provide information on the level of achievement, if possible with statistics and examples, of the aims and priorities of the “Integrated Action Program for the social integration of Greek Roma” as well as on progress made with regard to the Integrated Action Plan for the integration of third-country nationals legally residing in the Hellenic territory.

    10. Are ethnically Slavic Greeks in general allowed to use their mother languages in private schools and publications, including Slavic Macedonian? Are Slavic names accepted for children of Greek citizens?

    11. Please elaborate on the Government’s view of the decisions of the European Court of Human Rights which found that Greece violated the right to freedom of association by rejecting associations bearing the name “Turkish”.

    Article 6

    12. Please provide information on measures taken to guarantee the independence of the Office of the Ombudsman and to enhance its capacity to deal with discrimination in various fields.

    13. Please provide statistical information on the number and nature of cases regarding racism and racial discrimination dealt with by the Office of the Ombudsman, the Committee for Equal Treatment and the Labor Inspectorate during the period 2007-2009.

    14. Please comment on reports concerning obstacles encountered by Roma seeking an effective remedy in Greek courts. Please provide information on measures taken to ensure the equal treatment of Roma before civil courts and in the Criminal Justice System. Examples will be welcome.

    Article 7

    15. Please provide information on training programmes and courses on human rights issues for members of the judiciary, law enforcement officials and other public officials and indicate whether such programmes or courses include components focused on the rights and obligations set forth in the Convention.

    16. Please provide information on measures taken to disseminate the State party report and the Committee’s concluding observations, including through translation into Greek and posting on relevant Government websites.

    Additional information

    17. Please indicate if the State party intends to make a declaration under article 14 of the Convention, thus accepting the Committee’s competence to receive and consider individual complaints.

    18. As a matter of clarification and understanding, and without implying any criticism on the part of the Rapporteur, please explain the reasons why Greece signed (in 1997) but never ratified the Council of Europe’s Framework Convention for the Protection of National Minorities.

    ***

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