The only thing necessary for the persistence of evil is for enough good people to do nothing

Hard Life for Immigrants

Via Russia Today

Hard life for immigrants to Greece

Fearing immigration, Greece nonetheless has become an entry point for thousands aiming to escape their troubled homes in eastern countries on their way to Europe in search of a better life.

In the middle of the prosperous port of Patras there is a refugee camp. No one knows how many people live there. The authorities turn a blind eye to their existence. They are not registered and they have no jobs.

Harrib, like many there, has travelled thousands of kilometres overland from Afghanistan, through Iran and Turkey. However, Greece is not his intended destination.

Harib says he cannot go home, and is planning to illegally take a ferry to escape Greece one day.

”I would like to fix my life,” he said.

It is impossible to count how many others are in the same position. The number of official asylum seekers in Greece has risen tenfold in the last decade to over 20,000 a year. And for those trying to do things the legal way, non-government organisations are the first port of call.

The Greek state is obliged to provide asylum seekers with housing, an allowance and hospital care. However, funding is insufficient and NGOs are filling the gap.

”The level of social care in Greece is low,” said Spyros Koulocheris from the Greek Council for Refugees. “There is no tradition like in other countries, like in Scandinavian countries. It is kind of a different country, different mentality.”

Still, even if temporary conditions for refugees improve, for the majority Greece will not become their new home.

Authorities in any country try to separate those who are genuine asylum seekers and cannot return to their home country, and those who are economic migrants.

In Greece, less than one asylum application in 200 is successful – one of the lowest rates in the world. Immigration expert Anna Triandafyllidou says there is a political will behind this.

“There is an overarching view that migration is a problem,” she said. “That it is an evil that has fallen upon us.”

Some Greek politicians believe the identity of their country is built on ethnic and religious unity – and immigration threatens it. Consequently, even those who legally work in the country cannot expect the same rights as the locals.

”Because you are a foreigner, they will never treat you as a Greek,” says one immigrant woman.

But whether Greek government likes it or not, the floodgates have opened, and the flow will not stop any time soon.

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52 Comments

  1. Dimitris
    February 19, 2009    

    There is no tradition like in other countries, like in Scandinavian countries. It is kind of a different country, different mentality.”

    i can not understand what is the point of making this comparison between two countries that are radically different. This thing that has been taking place in Greece needs to stop, if we stop comparing maybe we will come up with some solutions/original thoughts….anyway its pointless to discuss whether GReece has a migration policy especially for the asylum seekers
    What i believe is that the EU should help in some way Greece over this matter. Because of its geographical location it could play a significant role in the EU migration policy, without any help the usual scapegoat is GReece.

    There is an overarching view that migration is a problem,”

    of course it is a problem if the host country does not have the ability to integrate the migrants especially when it comes to labour market issues…now if she means about racism, then i believe (or at least this what i want to believe) that greek people are not racists in general terms.

    ”Because you are a foreigner, they will never treat you as a Greek,” says one immigrant woman.

    if you are a foreigner, then you will always be a foreigner in EVERY country on this earth.

  2. Post Disagreement
    February 20, 2009    

    Dimitris you are delusional these people on this board think that Greece an ethnic homeland for the Greeks should be swamped out of existence by all comers and if we don’t approve of and appalud our disposession we are the equivalent of Nazis.

    Basically the more realistic analogy is that these people come from failed societies and want to come to Europe keep their Islam and 3 or 4 wives and 200 kids and expect that magically their problems will go away because Europeans are obligated to tax themselves to death to feed educate and house them.

    PAY ATTENTION:

    Harrib, like many there, has travelled thousands of kilometres overland from Afghanistan, through Iran and Turkey.”

    NOTICE:

    1) He went through two other countries.
    2) He did NOT seek asylum in either of those countries.
    3) Both those countries have Islamic majority cultures for him to feel at home in…and one can argue religiously they should take care of their own…their UMA…community in Islam.

    Thus this person may indeed be in need of asylum..but rules of international law..do not say the first country in the EU or with the best welfare program (he wants to move northward)…No they state in the first SAFE country.

    He could have sought asylum in Turkey or Iran.

    He could have taken his pick, Turkey is a Secular state Iran is a religious fundamentalist state.

    ALSO:

    Some Greek politicians believe the identity of their country is built on ethnic and religious unity – and immigration threatens it. Consequently, even those who legally work in the country cannot expect the same rights as the locals.

    ”Because you are a foreigner, they will never treat you as a Greek,” says one immigrant woman.

    >>>>

    Besides a lot of politicians most Greeks know that their country is built on ethnic identity and to some extent religion…otherwise why would our ancestors have bothered to rebel against the Ottoman empire…In fact most populations view their countries in either one or both of these ways…But some how its European nations that need to be multi-culti-ed even more than they are already or else we are racist but Japan can be Japanese (what a concept) Israel can be Jewish, African countires can kick out Whites and say Africa for Africans and pursue self-determination.

    See the double standard.

    How are foreigners treated in her country (the immigrant women complaining about her rights not being equal in Greece)?

    In Germany that nation has a law that favors native Germans over foreigners for work..this from feedback from some Polish friends of mine.

    I feel bad for these people and their conditions.

    But we never advertized that we were a rich country with the resources to absorb them. They just come to our doorstep and we owe them becasue they exist. Forgrt about the UMA..muslims community..forget about the neighboring countries..etc..no lets go half way across the world to get on the dole.
    and if the natives do not give it they are racist haters.

  3. Post Disagreement
    February 20, 2009    

    The Elites in most Western Nations want this added diversity for a couple of reasons.

    1) a house divided against itself can not stand..same applies for a society…so this will lead to more authoritarianism…
    before the mass immigration there were no hate and though crime laws in many European countries (expect perhaps dealing with the holocaust). So now we have in many EU countries whole bureaucracies to deal with diversity.

    If diversity of this magnitude is such a blessing we would not need these laws and rules.

    2) More people and the less educated they are means more cheap labor.

    The elites want slaves and the masses divided in ethnic and religious turmoil to consolidate their control.

    Think about it..if these people overwhelm Europe and we allow them..we would be doing a disservice to our own people and descendants and the ones coming in for “help” or a Better life will be the majority and society will be dominated by their culture (they would not assimilate the other way)….and hello Shariah Law…Cliterectomies…and backwardness. So what they wanted to escape came with them.

  4. Post Disagreement
    February 20, 2009    

    nobody answers how much is enough?

    How many more do we have to open our doors to so that we are okay with Diva, Panayote or Xenos?

    True most asylum applicants do not get approved but most still stick around or try to sneek up North to Scandanavia….Most are not sent back to their homelands. True they are in a limbo state but who brought that on them..

    Again there are many countries that are SAFE between Afghanistan and eve Iraq…I could see Christian minorities fleeing persecution from Islamic dominated states seeking a home in europe for obvious reasons…but why are Muslims traveling through many Muslim countries and then getting into majority non Muslim Europe and asking fro entrance?????????????????????????????????????????????

    Also, perhaps there is in fact good reason to reject 199 out of 200 applications…like maybe they are really economic migrants…not Asylum seekers.

    And again if they are the latter why not ask Turkey or Iran or Syria for Asylum?????????????????

  5. Post Disagreement
    February 20, 2009    

    ”The level of social care in Greece is low,”

    Yeah it ‘s also low for most ethnic Greeks by the way.

  6. Michael Scowcroft
    February 20, 2009    

    “What i believe is that the EU should help in some way Greece over this matter.”

    You make a good point Dimitris. I don’t think the economically poorer EU countries such as Greece and Portugal can cope with the cost issues that mass immigration imposes. I think the richer countries sometimes forget the economic strain that the poorer countries are under.

    But this doesn’t explain the very low successful asylum applications in Greece. Post Disagreement, do you think that the Greek government has effectively said “enough is enough” with this policy?

    Maybe those responsible for the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq (ie. our UK government and the USA) should bear the responsibility in processing refugees, granting asylum to them and accomodating immigrants in own contries rather than expecting poorer European nations to bear the brunt of a massive movement of people.

    Whenever i hear Brits talking about “we have enough immigrants, Britain is full” i think of the vast, empty, rolling hills of England. Enough can never be enough for a country as big as the UK. We can fit the whole of the population of the UK in one square mile of land. In fact, the whole population of the world can fit on one and a half times the Isle of Man! So, i can never understand when people from the USA and UK say we have “no room” for more immigrants. The infrastructure in rich countries like the UK and USA can cope with more immigrants unlike the poorer countries such as Greece and Portugal.

  7. Dimitris
    February 20, 2009    

    ”The level of social care in Greece is low,”

    Yeah it ’s also low for most ethnic Greeks by the way.

    That is a very unpleasant truth. Social care is extremely poor but from what i know is that in Greek hospitals they will not refuse to treat someone that is has no health insurance.social care is low because because because there is low privatization, so they can not refuse to treat him/her, of course migrants included. (i had heard of that on tv, do not know if it is true)

    But this doesn’t explain the very low successful asylum applications in Greece.

    yes that is true i think. but isn t it that a country needs to deal with economic migrants first and then with asylum seekers??
    besides i think that since we are talking about the EU, other richer member countries could take care of asylum seekers. What i mean is that since Greece,Portugal can not deal with this issue other countries should help and leave these countries deal with their important issues such as accepting the migrants in a better way instead of throwing them back into the sea…

    i think that EU migration policy is really really poor and a hot issue..if we think EU as one country, it is the same as saying that the national government puts the blame about migration on the province/local government that is close to the borders that migrants cross to get in the country… it does not make any sense…

  8. Dr. House
    February 20, 2009    

    I read few topics on this blog. It seems there are two camps. One with Diva, panayiote, xenos, and few others who appear support immigrants in Greece, and then another camp with post disgreement, michael, etc, who appear to think Greece is not racist etc. and should not have to take immigrants, and that usa/uk is fault. I never see post disgreemetn and Michael never criticize each other.

  9. Michael Scowcroft
    February 20, 2009    

    Dr. House, i didn’t say “Greece isn’t racist” or “uk/usa is at fault”. Please reread my posts and identify where i have said those things. Let’s have a discussion on the actual things i’ve said rather than the words you’ve put into my mouth.

    Why don’t you give us your opinion on the subject of this thread rather than make cryptic and paranoid accusations against contributors? Where do you live? Do you agree that there shouldn’t be a limit on immigration? Don’t be shy.

    DD, you live in Greece, do you think Greece is particularly well-equipped economically and infrastructure-wise to deal with the influx of immigrants?

    In my opinion, the UK is very well-equipped both financially and in terms of infrastructure to take in economic immigrants and refugees, especially for the wars we had a big hand in creating. But i’m dismayed at the vast majority of Brits who believe that there should be a limit to immigration despite our country being amply big enough and rich enough to accomodate immigrants.

    I’m slightly uneasy about pointing accusatory fingers at the poorer countries for having an abysmal attitude towards immigrants, and at the same time ignoring our own country’s pretty dismal attitudes towards immigration.
    After all, our governments have the ability to take in immigrants comfortably while poorer countries do not. Double standards don’t sit comfortably with me.

  10. February 20, 2009    

    Dimitris you are delusional these people on this board think that Greece an ethnic homeland for the Greeks should be swamped out of existence by all comers and if we don’t approve of and appalud our disposession we are the equivalent of Nazis

    @Post Disagreement

    I have never said (and no-one else has said) that Greeks should be swamped out of existence. And I have NEVER compared you to a Nazi or remotely suggested that you are one. You have posted many many times here without censorship. Please show the respect that I have shown you and please don’t resort to lies.

  11. February 20, 2009    

    1) He went through two other countries.
    2) He did NOT seek asylum in either of those countries.

    When we talk about seeking asylum in the first country you land in, we are talking about European law and neither Turkey or Iran are in Europe. When and if Turkey becomes a European country, we can call for correct procedure according to European law. Until then, Greece as a European country, MUST fulfill its obligations as they stand today.

  12. February 20, 2009    

    nobody answers how much is enough?

    There is no answer to that is there? And you know it. A country is not like a bus is it?

  13. Dr. House
    February 20, 2009    

    Michael, i did not read all posts. maybe i make a mistake. i will read closer, but i think that all regions, countries should help immigrants. Rich ones, poor ones also. do you live in greece. if immigrant is suffering, they don’t notice whether the country is rich or poor, only they are suffering.

  14. Michael Scowcroft
    February 20, 2009    

    I totally agree with you.

    Unfortunately, many people from my country (UK) are anti-immigration even though our country CAN cope with taking in more immigrants. This is the purest form of racism: We CAN cope with more immigrants but we don’t want any more immigrants due to inherent racism in British society. On the other hand, Greece and Portugal CAN’T cope with immigrantion but we like to imply they are racist too even though the reasons for being anti-immigration in these poorer countries has nothing to do with racism, the reasons are more practical and financial.

    We Brits like to soothe our imperialist guilt trips by lumping everyone under the same banner of xenophobia when in fact, the reasons for anti-immigration poor countries are totally different than ours.

    In short, Greek and Portuguese society is anti-immigration mainly because of practical and financial reasons. British society is anti-immigration because it is inherently racist.

  15. Post Disagreement
    February 21, 2009    

    Firstly I think DD and I disagree about what the facts are..yes there are EU laws but there are also international treaties on Asylum. If I am incorrect and its only an EU thing..then I think that is patently unfair because guess what is going to happen…What is happening..Malta, Greece, Italy and Spain the PIGS as we are called (Portuguese, Italians Greeks and Spaniards) have to take the brunt of the burden while Germany, Britiain and the other Northerners get to just wave their judgemental finger but not bother to lift one to help deal with this mess.

    DD: NO a country is not like a bus…its more like a house.

    DD said:

    There is no answer to that is there? And you know it. A country is not like a bus is it?

    Well thats where we disagree. If your own people who are the majority are decreasing in percentage very quickly and the newcomers are coming in as fast as they are now, then there is little opportunity for assimilation. i.e, if there is one or two non_greeks out of 100 the one or two will assimilate to the other 98 if its 10 Pakistanis, 10 Nigerians, 10 Thai Buddhist, 20 Greeks, 20 Brits, etc..there is nothing to assimilate to and you just have a state that is a state but not a nation anymore.

    Put it this way. I do not hate other people but I do not feel responsible to save them all. If we could help some great. But the numbers we have now are too much…so says the original natives the people that lived here before 1990s.
    That is a fair yardstick to me.

    Something has to be done in these people’s home countries by their own government to stem the flow.

    Finally, Turkey and Iran are Muslim countries and should extend a hand to members of their UMA.

    That man in the article just wanted to get to Europe because he thought he was going to go to Scandanavia and get free this and that to help him start his life.

    See if your nice the word gets out and people take advantage.

  16. Post Disagreement
    February 21, 2009    

    DD said;

    I have never said (and no-one else has said) that Greeks should be swamped out of existence.

    >>>>

    True, but that will be the result of continued unchecked mass immigration whether its legal or illegal.

    And your other thought about this situation confirms that you believe it should be unchecked..no limits.

    And we know we live in a world of 4,800,000,000 who would love the chance to leave to go live where the other 1,200,000,000 live. So do the math, if we induldged everybody bye bye Europe hello Eurasian-african Eurabia.
    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

    And I have NEVER compared you to a Nazi or remotely suggested that you are one. You have posted many many times here without censorship. Please show the respect that I have shown you and please don’t resort to lies.

    >>>>>

    Okay you don’t but Xenos basically calls anyone who thinks any restriction on immigration is hateful racist etc. and then he goes on about how most Greeks are xenophobes and haters and everything is illegal etc.

    And Xenophobe is a term thrown out at immigration restrictionist as a means to squelch debate.

    But you are correct YOU did not call me that.

    But I am also exaggerating to make a point.
    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

    You also side stepped my question about why did n’t this guy go to Turkey or Iran first, regardless of the EU law…those countries are members of the INtl community and should they not bare any burden especially for their co-religionists?

    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

    Michael wrote:

    Post Disagreement, do you think that the Greek government has effectively said “enough is enough” with this policy?

    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

    No I think it is a couple of things. I do think probably some legit asylum seekers are being unfairly treated but I think also the society as a whole is weary of the amount and pace of change in demographics..and I believe rightly so…

    Also, I disagree with you about Britain. It has accepted a lot of immigrants in the past. The economy has slowed down so they consequently have to slow down.

    Put it this way. I am willing to work and if I have enough money I will contribute to humanitarian causes and ideally to people who are suffering because of unforeseen disasters or even wars…but if you (collectively) because of birth control is illegal, and you keep your women like they are chattel and can’t space out your bringing kids into this world…well then guess what man…you made your own damn bed..or your parents did….
    If there is a tsunami and you need emergency money sure we should ALL peoples and nations help….but if your tsunami is a tsunami of uneducated poor persons because of the backwardness of your society no I am not going to take my savings or food from my kids mouth to feed yours….practice self control.

    Even if 100% of all people who came to my door where people in legitimate needy not because of stupidity..but because of natural disaster…even then I can not take care of 10 20 100 or more people. Maybe I can not even take care of me, I am going to forgo my inheritance and give half to you and then half to the next wave of seekers and have nothing for me.

    Truly Greece and Britain do have more space to build cities…
    but is that desireable?
    And why should any country be overwhelmed by any other.

    Look what happened to the Native Americans?

    If we follow the DD logic of there is no limit or number..well guess what thats what the colonist told the Native Americans and see how they are living.

    Sorry Michael but I would like Greece to remain majority Greek.
    And I think most people in every country would like their own majority ethnic group to remain the majority and not by a mere percentage point.

    Not because I hate anyone else, or I can not stand the presence of some foreigners…but this is our HOUSE this our HOME not a HOTEL..again why did our forebearers bother throwing off the Ottoman yoke.. to make a place for every Muslim fleeing his backward culture….and for that matter by logical extension DD why should any former British colony dare send migrants to Britain..they told the British to leave..is that not racist against the British?

    There is a double standard when it comes to European or European based countries and towards European peoples..We have to open the door let anyone in any numbers in..or else we are a —fill in the blank–.

    Of course the fact that there is a global economic melt down occurring only makes all this worse.

  17. Post Disagreement
    February 21, 2009    

    The Iraqis are more of an American caused problem and they should lend them a hand. Lets see. America bombs Iraq and the EU has to pay..that makes no sense.

    I do think that Europe being historically majority Christian should make some room for the persecuted Christians. Thats another reason why most people want their homelands to remain majority..themselves whatever that means..(Japan ..Japanese, Israel Jewish, etc.) if we let the Muslim population grow and grow in non Muslims countries there will be no majority European country where Christians fleeing Muslim persecution can flee to.

    I have met many nice Muslims but I also know there are many wealthy Muslims and Muslim countries. Your own should help you first before you go knocking on someone else door.

    The IRaqis are Arabic/Semitic but the ones that are Christian have something in common with Europeans to some degree and should be helped. Muslims have Arabia and UAE to help them.

    At the very least they should ask themselves..we keep having to leave our countries and seek help in NON-Muslim countries…maybe connect the dots,…educate your women, practice birth control, educate yourself, maybe become a humanist or a christian and give up the fanatical Islam..but no in Europe you have radical mosques preaching hate against Europeans Christians Jews etc.

    So that is biting the hand that feeds you.

    Eventually you get tired of your compassion being misused and unappreciated.

    Sorry but maybe all these countries that are sending these people need to be colonized by Europeans and allow European to manage their economies and societies. It would save them the trip and us the demographic and social stress.

  18. Dr. House
    February 21, 2009    

    Ok, Michael, you make good points. I wonder why Greece cannot have police guard border and only legal immigrant arrives in country? If enforcement is strict, would this solve this problem? Sadly, I think maybe Greece and many countries want immigrants for cheap labor, but do not want to increase infrastructure to help them. Not profitable.

  19. Michael Scowcroft
    February 21, 2009    

    Dr House,
    Are you the same person who pretended to be Singapore Sling from Singapore?
    Your pretend accent is similar to his. You must remember to use a different fake accent. Confucious say: “Michael is bad man, he very stupid” etc etc…you sound very similar.

    How can poor countries “increase infrastructure”? By waving a magic wand?
    Rich countries like ours have great infrastructure to cope with immigration but we’re anti-immigration because our society is inherently racist. We don’t even grant citizenship to Gurkha’s who have served in our armed forces, that’s how racist we are.

    Mainstream British society is anti-immigration while at the same time, we rely on immigrant NHS doctors to make us better when we’re ill. And Polish dentists to fix our teeth or build our homes. We Brits are stupid sometimes. I take it you’re a Brit?

  20. Dr. House
    February 21, 2009    

    Michael, I am not this person who you think. I was just typing fast sorry. I am citizen of the world and do not like to admit my home to anyone. What do you think of Greece’s views on immirgants? I have been to London many times and they were very friendly to me and I’m not a common person to London.

  21. Michael Scowcroft
    February 21, 2009    

    Confucious say: If DD do IP check, would Dr. House and Singapore Sling prove to be same person?

    Why won’t you tell us where you’re from? What’s the big secret?

  22. Michael Scowcroft
    February 22, 2009    

    We should be more careful in criticising poorer countries for their attitudes to immigrants because these countries often lack the experience and infrastructure to accomodate mass immigration whereas we in Britain lack for nothing and view immigration from a more racist angle.
    You cannot equate the poorer countries’ INABILITY TO COPE with mass immigration with the richer countries’ REFUSAL TO TOLERATE immigrants.

    Britain has a long history of intolerance and racism towards immigrants whereas the poorer countries have more practical and financial concerns to mass immigration.

    There can be no doubt that we have a long and shameful history of hatred towards immigrants:

    How immigrants are portrayed in British press:

    The fear of the “molatto Briton”:

    Unfortunately, these attitudes continue in mainstream British society to this day. The children of immgrants bearing the brunt of this racism:

    British Policeman: “why do you want to join the n*ggers?”

    More police incitement caused a riot in Notting Hill 2008. We have a history of hatred, agitation and provocation towards immigrants.

    With this level hatred towards immigrants and their British children in our own country, we should look deeply at ourselves before accusing the poorer and developing countries of inhumane treatment of immigrants. Especially when these poor countries lack the financial means to improve conditions for immigrants, while our richer countries lack for nothing except tolerance.

  23. Stef
    April 9, 2009    

    um. yes, if we Greeks and we Europeans don’t approve of our countries and native homelands being swamped by waves of immigrants we are fascist racist nazis.

    whatever serves your goals.

    we welcome everyone, but there are limits. Greeks in Greece are 9 millions. Pakistanis in Pakistan are 160 millions. now add all those 3rd world countries that we supposedly “owe” to receive immigrants from… can you understand?

    i don’t say poor people shouldn’t exist.

    i just say: can i live in peace in my homeland without being annihilated by millions of invaders? peaceful invaders or not, it doesn’t matter. even if all the immigrants were peace loving hippies with lots of money it would be still the same.

    you can keep your roma, paki, somali identity in your 99.9% roma (north india), paki, somali country.
    can i keep mine in my 80% Greek country?

  24. Stef
    April 10, 2009    

    Are you being annihilated? Really?

    why? would you care?.. i thought being a 21st century Mother Teresa meant you only care about the geometrical multiplication of 3rd World People. was i wrong? sorry. some nations of Europe are. i don’t think Greeks or Italians are but i care for other nations, as i care for mine.

    you still didn’t answer. Are Pakis (it’s a decent name, and sounds cool), Somalis, Roma, Botswanese so successful in living and happy people that apart from their objectively swamped countries they need to fill up other countries?

    Those are simple questions people should do to each other and themselves,

    you can keep your Roma, Pakistani, Somalian identity in your 99.9% Roma (north India), Pakistan, Somalian country.
    can i keep mine in my 80% greek country?
    well can i? or humanism and altruism say otherwise?

  25. April 9, 2009    

    um. yes, if we Greeks and we Europeans don’t approve of our countries and native homelands being swamped by waves of immigrants we are fascist racist nazis.

    I don’t think ANYONE has said that but they might now after your comment!

    we welcome everyone, but there are limits. Greeks in Greece are 9 millions. Pakistanis in Pakistan are 160 millions. now add all those 3rd world countries that we supposedly “owe” to receive immigrants from… can you understand?

    I am not stupid. I understand what you are saying even though I disagree with your stance.

    i just say: can i live in peace in my homeland without being annihilated by millions of invaders? peaceful invaders or not, it doesn’t matter. even if all the immigrants were peace loving hippies with lots of money it would be still the same.

    lol. Sorry but “hippy” is about the last thing you can call me! Are you being annihilated? Really?

    you can keep your roma, paki, somali identity in your 99.9% roma (north india), paki, somali country.
    can i keep mine in my 80% Greek country?

    You do know that we don’t use the word “paki” anymore? Some of us actually live in the 21st century. And place and country names are written with capitals!

    I am rarely rude to people but you really P#%^@$ed me off!

  26. Stef
    April 10, 2009    

    i am sorry am i talking to a hypocrite that stands on details and fails to answer and make arguments in a civilized convo?

    Paki is the first part of the compound Pakistan. -stan is a Persian suffix that means place etc.
    Just like Turkmenistan, Yunanistan. I wouldn’t be offended if you called me Yunani or a Turkmensitan person Turkmen. And i know for a fact that Pakistani people use the word Paki and don’t find it offensive by outsiders.

    Anyway. Just like the Post Disagreement dude, i sensed you believe that European countries somehow owe “water and land” to poor people of Africa and Asia. What i say is that it is an objective double standard against Europe. I don’t remember Greece being a part of colonization nor exploiting Africa’s resources. If anything Greece is very very poor in resources compared to Africa or Asia.
    So what i ask is why do the few Europeans owe to receive the waves of immigrants? Have you ever seen waves of Greeks going to Pakistan? or even Saudi Arabia? which is far far far richer than here. why do you fail to see the injustice? that’s what we ask.

    and i repeat, you can keep your Roma, Pakistani, Somalian identity in your 99.9% Roma (north India), Pakistan, Somalian country.
    can i keep mine in my 80% greek country?
    well can i? or humanism and altruism say otherwise?

    and about that stuff that “Europe is empty” and “needs more people”, this couldn’t be more far from the truth. ask any anthropologist/scientist.
    Earth’s number one problem is overpopulation. The second being low level of respect for human life. and guess what. the countries you defend are champions in both of them. haven’t you ever thought that maybe it’s time for the third world and the people you defend or represent or try to protect or whatever, to try to stand on their legs and stop seeking blame on others?
    keep in mind that i had the exact same way of thinking as you, for years in my life, until i traveled and saw the facts.

    i’m sorry i disagree with you, which frustrates you, i guess in your life of living with Roma people you never had any disagreements about their way of life….
    everything is perfect by your side and we are the wrong, greedy, hateful, racists….

  27. April 10, 2009    

    Are Pakis (it’s a decent name, and sounds cool)

    It’s far from cool, Stef. It’s rude and ignorant.

    i thought being a 21st century Mother Teresa meant you only care about the geometrical multiplication of 3rd World People. was i wrong?

    Well I suppose I can be grateful that at least you’re funny in your misguided comments! And yes, you are wrong.

    I am not sure what you are demanding me to answer? What’s the question ?

  28. April 10, 2009    

    i am sorry am i talking to a hypocrite that stands on details and fails to answer and make arguments in a civilized convo?

    I can’t help you there if that’s how you see my comments. As I said in my last comment to you…What is the question ?

    Paki is the first part of the compound Pakistan. -stan is a Persian suffix that means place etc.
    Just like Turkmenistan, Yunanistan. I wouldn’t be offended if you called me Yunani or a Turkmensitan person Turkmen. And i know for a fact that Pakistani people use the word Paki and don’t find it offensive by outsiders.

    You are right that the word “Paki” is a shortened form of Pakistan (and I am not ignorant, I know what “-stan” means) but it has long been considered offensive and racist in the same way as “coloured” “gypo” and “half-breed” are now unacceptable. Some young Pakistanis in Britain are now re-claiming the word (a complicated issue) but it is STILL unacceptable for non-Pakistani people to use it. In the same way as the N word. Please refrain on this blog! And I would suggest you refrain from using it in front of Pakistani people too.

    Anyway. Just like the Post Disagreement dude, i sensed you believe that European countries somehow owe “water and land” to poor people of Africa and Asia. What i say is that it is an objective double standard against Europe. I don’t remember Greece being a part of colonization nor exploiting Africa’s resources. If anything Greece is very very poor in resources compared to Africa or Asia.

    I don’t know where you get the idea that I think that Greece “owes” anything to the people of Africa or Asia. The situation of Greece is entirely different to that of Britain, France and other colonial countries. The fact is that immigrants are arriving here. It is a hub country for immigration. The point I am trying to make is that Greece has to make an effort to deal with the people who arrive here with the help of other European countries and the aid that it receives (which could probably be more but that’s another issue). I am not saying that Greece “owes” anything except to treat people as human beings and to uphold the human rights laws that it has ratified but fails to uphold.

    So what i ask is why do the few Europeans owe to receive the waves of immigrants? Have you ever seen waves of Greeks going to Pakistan? or even Saudi Arabia? which is far far far richer than here. why do you fail to see the injustice? that’s what we ask.

    Again, I am not talking about “owing”. I am talking about dealing with the actual reality of what is happening in a humane and dignified way. No I do not see waves of Greeks going to Pakistan or Saudi Arabia. Why should they? There were waves of Greeks who went to America and Australia and even England(richer countries than Greece) seeking a better life for themselves and their families. This is the number one reason for leaving ones homeland. It is a rare person who picks and leaves his home, family etc for no other reason than to annoy the locals! The vast majority of immigrants here in Greece are leaving war-torn countries or difficult political situations in their homeland to find work and/or security for themselves and their families. I would challenge you to find a single person who has arrived here with the intention of invading and annihilation (which is what you imply)

    and i repeat, you can keep your Roma, Pakistani, Somalian identity in your 99.9% Roma (north India), Pakistan, Somalian country.
    can i keep mine in my 80% greek country?
    well can i? or humanism and altruism say otherwise?

    I don’t think that is a choice you or I have. Countries are not static things. They are constantly changing aren’t they ? They have been for centuries. The point is how is Greece going to deal with its changing demographic. Something that is the subject of intense debate all over Europe.

    and about that stuff that “Europe is empty” and “needs more people”, this couldn’t be more far from the truth. ask any anthropologist/scientist.

    I don’t think I ever talked about Europe being empty. Maybe that was another person commenting here?

    Earth’s number one problem is overpopulation. The second being low level of respect for human life. and guess what. the countries you defend are champions in both of them. haven’t you ever thought that maybe it’s time for the third world and the people you defend or represent or try to protect or whatever, to try to stand on their legs and stop seeking blame on others?
    keep in mind that i had the exact same way of thinking as you, for years in my life, until i traveled and saw the facts.

    I am not a defender or representative of any countries, continents, peoples or individuals. The aim of my blog is simply to report Human Rights abuses which occur on a daily basis here in Greece. I have never blamed Greece for the difficulties experienced in Africa or Asia. I am all for supporting the efforts made in under-developed countries to ensure that people do not have to leave their homes and families to seek a better life elsewhere.

    i’m sorry i disagree with you, which frustrates you, i guess in your life of living with Roma people you never had any disagreements about their way of life….
    everything is perfect by your side and we are the wrong, greedy, hateful, racists….

    Many people disagree with me, Stef. That’s life and I am not frustrated by you. Annoyed by the words you use. Annoyed that you have not understood what my stance is (perhaps it’s just because you haven’t read enough of my blog). Angry that you assign opinions to me that are not mine. But not frustrated. Believe me, I have been through worse on this blog! I have never said that everything is rosy with the Roma communities here (Just read the Roma series if you want to know more) and I do not accuse everyone who disagrees with me as racist or wrong-headed. I am challenged by many people who do not agree with me and I have some great blog friends here who make me think every step of the way. Disagreement is not an insult unless you make it such. The words you have used are racist but questioning immigration is not. Do you see the difference? I am quite happy to discuss the issues but I am not going to pander to someone who thinks they know better.

    If you understand ONE thing in this comment, I hope it’s that I am not blaming you, Greeks or Greece. I am simply asking HOW we can deal with the reality of 21st century Europe and respect those who come here through no fault of their own and with no malicious intention.

  29. Michael Scowcroft
    April 10, 2009    

    Actually, the word “Paki” is not offensive for many Pakistanis, even when non-Pakistanis use it. Alot of the Australian, English and white South African cricketers use the word “Paki” frequently, especially when travelling in the Indian sub-continent and it is an accepted term.

    The problem is when white Britons use it in the UK, because it has been used condescendingly for many years and so the word “Paki” has taken on a different meaning than merely a shortened version of “Pakistani”.
    Brits have used the word “Paki” in a racist way for many years and the word has taken on an offensive meaning in the UK whereas everyone else in the world, including Stef no doubt, use it as an acceptable abbreviation.

    Trust the racist Brits to take an abbreviation and make a racist word out of it. British racism truly has no limits.

  30. April 10, 2009    

    Maybe it is just us Brits who have caused the whole problem with the word but I have never seen any serious journalist or writer use it as an actual accepted term.

    I would still avoid the word and seriously prefer not to see other people use it. My British roots probably but again I have NEVER heard the word used in anything other than a derogatory way.

  31. Michael Scowcroft
    April 10, 2009    

    DD,
    Its quite ironic that ‘Paki’ means ‘pure’ or ‘clean’ in Urdu and thus Pakistan is translated as ‘Land of the Pure’ or ‘Land of the Clean’.

    But it has been hijacked by ignorant bigotted Brits who don’t know the difference between a Pakistani, Bengali, Indian, Sri Lanken, Kashmiri or even an Iranian. ‘Paki’ has really become a word of ignorant and racist Brits.

    “Paki” is only a problematic word in Britain, where the word has been used condescendingly since the 1960s against immigrants of the Indian sub-continent.

    In almost every other place in the world, “Paki” is an acceptable abbreviation for “Pakistani”, even when said by whites (you’d hear it on cricket commentaries among whites and Pakistanis talking with each other).

    Brits in UK use “Paki” primarily in a racist way, whereas almost everywhere else, “Paki” is used as an abbreviation.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/personal-view/4230169/Prince-Harry-has-shared-an-uncomfortable-secret-by-using-the-word-Paki.html

    Most non-Brits don’t know about the negative connotations of the word, it’s almost certainly used for abbreviation.

    We Brits have managed to turn an abbreviation into a word of hate. Just one more thing to be ashamed of.

  32. Stef
    April 10, 2009    

    I’m sorry if i put words in your mouth, i am just projecting opinions that i’ve heard.

    I also think that comparing Greeks’ immigration to that of Pakistanis, Arabs, Africans etc is insulting.

    Have you ever seen Greeks migrating in numbers or percentages like this?
    Have you ever seen Greeks making ghettos in their host countries? have you??
    Have you ever seen Greeks feel anger and hate and disrespect for their host country?
    of course i don’t claim Greeks never were a part of the mafia in US or UK but even the Greek or even rough Russian or Chinese mafia which are despicable cannot compare to the kind of new type of crime we Europeans are not used to. Smuggling goods and stealing is one thing and that > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=21ba4qItgDQ is another.
    I just wanted my opinion to be heard because it represents many people.
    no, i never said most Pakistani, Arabs, Africans come here to conquer, invade and annoy but with their numbers it is mathematically certain. we have seen it in Brussels- where the most popular name is Muhammad and we see it in Athens and even Italy. if you fail to see it or close your eyes or enjoy it is another thing. i have a simple sense of justice between people and nations: Don’t do to others what you don’t wish to be done upon you.
    As the other dude said, there are peaceful nations between Botswana and Greece/Europe, there are other reasons immigrants choose us here.

    I am simply asking HOW we can deal with the reality of 21st century Europe and respect those who come here through no fault of their own and with no malicious intention.

    yes the main question is how to deal with poverty and war and the third world. why? do you think us uninvolved Europeans wanted poor people to arrive in masses to our borders? or is it our malicious intention to attract them? do you have any idea how the Roma or Congolese would react if we did that to them?? go to Africa and see what happens when one tribe steps into the turf of another… do you know the answer to solve the problem? that’s what we’re talking about. the respect of humanism wasn’t primarily violated in Greece or Italy or Austria where immigrants end up, it was violated in their homeland. that is the source of the problem. any sane man can understand that. the source of the problem can only heal the wound. we didn’t create the Taliban and we didn’t say to the different African tribes to slaughter each other. as if Greece or Italy doesn’t have poor Greeks and Italians already. I don’t say not to help in time of need. but centuries now continuously is not time of need. that is what i am saying. to stop using my communities of Italians and Greeks and Spanish as a buffer to problematic communities we never were involved with. of course any man and woman is a brother and sister but people who don’t plan about how and where their own children will grow up in, that is not an emergency. it is plain disrespect for their own kind and not something we need to nurture and finance decade after decade after decade. Europe is not superhuman. we have poor people too. we are people too. we want peace too. we work hard too.

  33. Stassa
    April 12, 2009    

    COMMENT DELETED BY DEVIOUS DIVA

    That kind of language is totally unacceptable on this blog.

  34. Stassa
    April 12, 2009    

    I apologise of course and you are right to be upset. After cooling down a bit I realised I would probably have barred that comment from my own blog.

    So please allow me to rephrase.

    Stef, when you say this:

    I also think that comparing Greeks’ immigration to that of Pakistanis, Arabs, Africans etc is insulting.

    I realise that you have no idea how people in other countries see the Greeks who immigrated there. After having lived and worked here in the UK for a while, I can tell you that they think of us exactly how you think of Asians and Africans, the poor people you don’t want coming in our country.

    In fact, to Anglosaxon people we are brown, just like all Mediterraneans. I’ve been asked, for example “how can you be Greek if you’re blonde?”, I’ve been called a “bloody foreigner” on occasion and I’ve had people taking offense when I pointed out that my skin was actually lighter than theirs (when discussing make-up).

    Even people who don’t think that brown- or darker- skinned people are any different can’t get over what I can only refer to as their cultural conditioning. Even though I don’t look at all brown (my facial features and my colours are actually slavic) when they learn I’m Greek, they begin to think of me as brown or olive-skinned, as if there is some colour filter that is automatically switched on. So they end up responding not to me as a person, but to what they perceive as my culture- some in a positive or neutral way, others in a negative one. For dark- haired and -skinned Greeks, it’s even more pronounced.

    And of course there are special racial slurs used against Greeks, just like any other immigrant. “Wog”, which comes from “Golliwog”, a derogatory term used for black-skinned people is used in the UK. “Greaseball”, probably a play on words with “Greece” and “grease” are how Americans refered to the first generation of Greek immigrants. And, yes, Greeks lived in their own ghettoes, like the Pakistanis and the Chinese today. There are “Greektowns” in most major American cities, like there are Chinatowns for example.

    In any case, here’s a very interesting documentary on Greek immigrants in the USA, by Kouloglou. At least I hope you find it interesting.

    And this also, from a friend who’s lived in the States:
    http://xomeritis.blogspot.com/2009/03/greaser-from-greece.html

  35. Stassa
    April 12, 2009    

    DeviousDiva:
    I’m trying to find your email, because I’m not sure my apology above is enough. I wish you had actually quoted the words that upset you; I think most Greeks really haven’t a clue that there are words that others use to describe them that are just as offensive as “paki” and “kaffir” for example (you know most Greeks have no idea where “kafros” comes from, btw? Or if they do, they think it’s “some tribe in Africa”- apparently that makes it less offensive.)

    What I’m trying to say is I’m really embarassed by my original comment and I don’t feel I can apologise enough. Well, my punishment is that I now feel like an idiot.

    Btw, I found your blog by chance and I hadn’t looked at your icon carefully, or checked out your “important posts” links. I suspect that Stef, railing against Africant immigrants may have been overlooking a certain subtle parameter of your discussion.

  36. April 13, 2009    

    @Stassa

    Thank you for the apology. I had not understood the context of your comment and took it to be racist slurs. I am particularly sensitive about this issue because many people have been hurt by other comments like that here.

    I am glad you clarified your opinion.

    And no need to apologise again.

  37. Stef
    April 14, 2009    

    LOL Stassa you just compared my attitude to that of a racist north European. I have nothing to do with that. i am a Greek. a south European. and not a racist. a north African. a Mediterranean Indo-European.
    i know exactly where my genes come from and how i look. and how i look is irrelevant. Stassa you involve in the convo how Greeks may look to North Europeans as if that would make anything different. That would make something different to an insecure Greek/Spaniard/south European who mistakenly puts his own cultural status to that of an African because they may “look the same” to some third person. people who judge themselves upon how few people judge them are pathetic losers for once, and second even if i look like Schortsianitis (an African Greek) i have more cultural-social affinity to a Swede than i have to an African. it is not a matter of looks but a matter of social peace and social structure.
    for example i happen to be used to live in one of the countries with the least violent crime globally http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_murder_rate and i personally think it is too good to be slaughtered in the name of “an Englishman thinks of me as a low life person, so lets bring all the low life persons in Europe, that will show them”
    that is an attitude many north Europeans also have, and it is a pathetic insecure psychotic psychology. if Ghana had social peace it would be to Ghana that i would feel closer to. If Sweden was a theocratic dictatorship i would feel bad for them as i feel for Iranis. do you get what i’m saying?

    i wanted to point that to DevDiv (how i look) but i didn’t find it that important.
    i think it stresses even more my point that me as a person i can look more like an Arab (whose Islamic social culture i hate) or a Roma or a Pakistani or even an African than a Norwegian or a Swede or a Brit as you can see> http://www.myspace.com/cutehappybrute plus i like Hindu folk music http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tlyxh__zn5E many times more than i like Central-North European folk music or even Greek folk music. yet it is not emotion and racist defense-compulsion that drives my ideas. and i am sad to see many many people base their ideas on their race and ethnicity… Stassa for me you are the racist, and not me. you divide people based on colour and base your ideas on that level. i base my ideas on plain justice, the right of a nation to keep its identity, social freedom and evolution and not social dumps.
    you have the right to compare Greeks’ immigration to that of the modern mass of immigrants, although i find it foolish and vacant. Greektowns compared to unapproachable ghettos? get serious. and you bring exaggerated “documentaries” as an argument… find any old north European, German, British, American and ask him if his society was worsened and his identity endangered by the arrival of Greeks in his area. that is what counts, and not some simpleton’s parallelism of immigrants. do that first and then compare them to modern immigrants. another example: in Greece we have many Polish immigrants. they are Slavs. but since their way of living resembles ours we welcome them. there are also south Slav immigrants, from ex-Yugoslavia. they are as poor as the Polish ones but their way of life and affinity to crime and social inadequacy is compared to that of a Nigerian. so as an immigrant the Yugoslavian and the Nigerian are no different to me even though we are closer historically with the Y/slavians. to you or the Brits you mentioned they may be because you divide people based on skin.

    that is the point. DevDiva is defending Roma because she is Roma, Stassa defends the Pakistanis because some Brit told her that’s how he perceives her or Greeks, the Arab is defending Islam because that’s where he was born in.
    that is the problem. that is racism. looking at teams and skins and races when you really ought to look at societies and cultural structures and what society you wanna live in. and not violently force another one live in the society you want to live in. if you wanna live like the Roma, go where they come from, North India.
    If you wanna live like a Pakistani, go to Pakistan, if you wanna live like a Greek go to Greece. don’t assume things and make social experiments on my society’s expense.

    is my way of justice so extreme to you ?

    p.s. Stassa, you don’t have to be of Slavic origin to be a blond Greek. i am dark with 2 dark parents and my brother is whiter than a pale Scot and was born blond and is now dirty blondish, just like my blue-eyed Cretan grandfather. Blond-redhead Greeks existed from Homeric times, in low percentages. as they do now.

    pps> Human Development Index> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Development_Index
    > Belgium 0.948
    Greece 0.947
    Italy 0.945
    New Zealand 0.944
    United Kingdom 0.942

    so i can safely put a Pakistani and a Briton in the same race-cultural-development level as they have lower human development index than where i’m from…

  38. Stef
    April 14, 2009    

    ppps. Stassa i knew everything you mentioned about Greeks, perception, immigrant Greeks Kouloglou stuff, the Goliwog doll etc. and i still know for a fact that your parallelism of immigrant Greeks to the masses of modern immigrants is ridiculous and there is nothing more to it. if you can’t see it there is no help for you. even if there was a 100% global vote and if 100% of people on host countries said it’s not the same you’d still believe what you want to believe… i know myths like this for years and i used to believe them like you do now. until i read, asked, searched and woke up and looked at things straight.

    bye all.

  39. Stef
    April 14, 2009    

    damn i can’t post =/

    LOL Stassa you just compared my attitude to that of a racist north European. I have nothing to do with that. i am a Greek. a south European. and not a racist. a north African. a Mediterranean Indo-European.
    i know exactly where my genes come from and how i look. and how i look is irrelevant. Stassa you involve in the convo how Greeks may look to North Europeans as if that would make anything different. That would make something different to an insecure Greek/Spaniard/south European who mistakenly puts his own cultural status to that of an African because they may “look the same” to some third person. people who judge themselves upon how few people judge them are pathetic losers for once, and second even if i look like Schortsianitis (an African Greek) i have more cultural-social affinity to a Swede than i have to an African. it is not a matter of looks but a matter of social peace and social structure.
    for example i happen to be used to live in one of the countries with the least violent crime globally http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_murder_rate and i personally think it is too good to be slaughtered in the name of “an Englishman thinks of me as a low life person, so lets bring all the low life persons in Europe, that will show them”
    that is an attitude many north Europeans also have, and it is a pathetic insecure psychotic psychology. if Ghana had social peace it would be to Ghana that i would feel closer to. If Sweden was a theocratic dictatorship i would feel bad for them as i feel for Iranis. do you get what i’m saying?

  40. Stef
    April 14, 2009    

    i wanted to point that to DevDiv (how i look) but i didn’t find it that important.
    i think it stresses even more my point that me as a person i can look more like an Arab (whose Islamic social culture i hate) or a Roma or a Pakistani or even an African than a Norwegian or a Swede or a Brit as you can see> myspace.com/cutehappybrute plus i like Hindu folk music youtube.com/watch?v=Tlyxh__zn5E many times more than i like Central-North European folk music or even Greek folk music. yet it is not emotion and racist defense-compulsion that drives my ideas. and i am sad to see many many people base their ideas on their race and ethnicity… Stassa for me you are the racist, and not me. you divide people based on colour and base your ideas on that level. i base my ideas on plain justice, the right of a nation to keep its identity, social freedom and evolution and not social dumps.
    you have the right to compare Greeks’ immigration to that of the modern mass of immigrants, although i find it foolish and vacant. Greektowns compared to unapproachable ghettos? get serious. and you bring exaggerated “documentaries” as an argument… find any old north European, German, British, American and ask him if his society was worsened and his identity endangered by the arrival of Greeks in his area. that is what counts, and not some simpleton’s parallelism of immigrants. do that first and then compare them to modern immigrants. another example: in Greece we have many Polish immigrants. they are Slavs. but since their way of living resembles ours we welcome them. there are also south Slav immigrants, from ex-Yugoslavia. they are as poor as the Polish ones but their way of life and affinity to crime and social inadequacy is compared to that of a Nigerian. so as an immigrant the Yugoslavian and the Nigerian are no different to me even though we are closer historically with the Y/slavians. to you or the Brits you mentioned they may be because you divide people based on skin.

    that is the point. DevDiva is defending Roma because she is Roma, Stassa defends the Pakistanis because some Brit told her that’s how he perceives her or Greeks, the Arab is defending Islam because that’s where he was born in.
    that is the problem. that is racism. looking at teams and skins and races when you really ought to look at societies and cultural structures and what society you wanna live in. and not violently force another one live in the society you want to live in. if you wanna live like the Roma, go where they come from, North India.
    If you wanna live like a Pakistani, go to Pakistan, if you wanna live like a Greek go to Greece. don’t assume things and make social experiments on my society’s expense.

    is my way of justice so extreme to you ?

  41. Stef
    April 14, 2009    

    p.s. Stassa, you don’t have to be of Slavic origin to be a blond Greek. i am dark with 2 dark parents and my brother is whiter than a pale Scot and was born blond and is now dirty blondish, just like my blue-eyed Cretan grandfather. Blond-redhead Greeks existed from Homeric times, in low percentages. as they do now.

    pps> Human Development Index> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Development_Index
    > Belgium 0.948
    Greece 0.947
    Italy 0.945
    New Zealand 0.944
    United Kingdom 0.942

    so i can safely put a Pakistani and a Briton in the same race-cultural-development level as they have lower human development index than where i’m from…

    (and then goes the ppps comment =/ )

  42. April 14, 2009    

    @ Stef

    Your comments are not getting posted because of the links you inserted. My blog limits links to one per comment. I did this to prevent being linked to sites with dubious content. This has happened in the past and the result was not pretty. It also helps prevent spam although its not a 100% successful!

    I don’t really know how to respond to your comments. You accuse Stassa of dividing people by colour, yet you divide people by race, origin (even a whole continent!), culture etc And worse, you make judgments about their worth, value and (according to you) inferiority based on that.

    One thing I’d like to clear up for you because you seem to be fixated on it, is that I am not Roma. I defend Roma rights because they are being treated in an appalling way and are abused in ways that contravene European AND Greek human rights laws. It’s that simple.

    Human rights is exactly that HUMAN rights. It’s not “European People rights” or “Rights for People We Approve of”

    I also would suggest you didn’t rely on Wikipedia for your reading and learning. I have always thought that the best way to find out about people from other cultures and countries is to actually meet and talk with them. You might be surprised!

  43. April 14, 2009    

    btw Stef

    The Human Development index you seem to like is not about HUMAN (as in a person) development. It’s based on COUNTRY development.

  44. Stef
    April 14, 2009    

    sorry for the misunderstandings.
    i never talked about human rights. my only mention to them is that human life is much more valued in my country en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate than in yours or 3rd world countries. and that is the main thing i am defending. is that bad? is that inhuman?
    and no, HDI refers to individuals. not infrastructure. are you questioning the value of that statistic?.. did you expect other countries in the top 30? yes the well being of a human is based by a big percentage on wealth/resources but the HDI measures even more accurate the human development. that’s why you don’t see Saudi Arabia or Qatar in the top , that as i’ve said are far far wealthier than Greece or Iceland etc.. most African countries have more resources than Greece by sheer numbers anyway … but having 12 children when you can only feed 4 is a serious factor of societal failure among other things…

    i don’t know where do you get the inferiority thing. i believe there are inferior societies and cultures, not genes. that’s the only 2 things in which individuals are divided. genetic identity and cultural identity. genetically people are pretty much the same, although 3rd world people may actually be superior since raw natural selection has worked more years than it has in developed countries. culturally people are vastly different. what is a taboo to Islam is everyday thing in Europe. what is unsanitary for Europe is ok for Pakistan. and not because Pakistanis are dirty by nature but because they are packed and overpopulated.

    and don’t lecture me on information gathering. most people i talk to only “know about” “Roma rights” “African kids” “poor Pakistanis” and “Freedom to Palestine” when the most severe famines of the 90s happened in North Korea. but who cares about those kids? the news don’t show them.

    anywho, the only thing that i am saying all this time is that while not violating human rights is what you and me aim for, to achieve that goal is not by focusing on only one- indirect- part of the problem (the countries immigrants end up to) but also the source of the problem- the environment and society that creates all these problems- the societies that immigrants come from. because objectively: destroying one healthy society to supposedly help another one that is sick and not planning to get well anytime soon is the most inhuman of all these.
    you just end up with 2 sick societies. and that is where Europe is heading to. having ghettos and favelas like the sick societies everyone hates to live in. that will divide society to the old “good poor people” and “bad rich people” fairytale that we are so sick of.

  45. Stef
    April 14, 2009    

    DevDiv said:

    if Turkey becomes a European country, we can call for correct procedure according to European law. Until then, Greece as a European country, MUST fulfill its obligations as they stand today.

    because only European countries ought to respect human rights. right? all others can do whatever the hell they want. Europe owes all that. Europeans can be slaughtered in Turkey http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6568911.stm
    but Turks should not be denied welfare in Sweden because that would make the damn Swedes racist.
    there is the problem about your way of thinking. you cannot be more wrong. what is Europe? a Union of the supreme beings? there aren’t poor Europeans? or do you think outside of Europe it doesn’t count as a society and you label them as some kind of jungle? even if Turkey or Iran or Pakistan was in the European Union for 120 years now, things would be no better. and your whining would be towards the same people. those from whom you’d have the chance to be heard. because we will never see you protest for human rights in Turkey or Pakistan or Congo or Saudi Arabia….

  46. Stef
    April 14, 2009    

    lol ok ok…

    what can i do? feel me. i find it hypocritical. Even though your intentions are obviously good. European humanism laws may be superior to that of Iran and Saudi but that does not mean the latter ones haven’t signed international agreements. that is irrelevant. and if they haven’t you should shout foremost about them and not us.
    the result is what counts. Europe is not superior humanism-wise because it has better laws, but because the human rights laws are being broken way less than in Turkey, Iran. take Greeks as a bad example of law-abiding citizens. if the Greek society hasn’t got its head around a law it isn’t going to abide it. people get killed in car crashes all the time, no matter how many laws and tickets we’ve brought to the penal code. if this or the next generation doesn’t get for what reason that law should be aboded, it will be disobeyed until the end of time. if the Ghanese people don’t understand how to live in a sustainable way in peace, you won’t ever make them by sending them to Europe. because the problem in their country will remain unsolved and breed more people whose human rights are violated.
    even if there was zero human rights violations in Europe, would you be happy? the most severe ones happen because of the mass of immigrants. can’t you see the problem is immigration and not Europe? no matter how much Europe supports those people, their countries are still there, they don’t move to Europe too.
    for me, having double standards is as racist and it is like closing the eyes to the problem for the sake of being politically correct, afraid of being labeled a racist if you put the equivalent blame to 3rd world societies and so on…

    btw since you are of the cool kind, you should check out the places where the immigrants reside in Patra if you ever pass by and check for human rights violations, ask them a few things etc.
    a (stereotypical) hippie girl from Patras passed by the place to give them some food and she was warned not to pass by that place because it was “the men’s place”(the whole place, not toilet or whatever) and some other stuff. anyway, you should find out for yourself since you are a brave defender of the weak and tell us stupid bad people what are the human rights that we violate and what money/land/residential areas should we give in order to be good humanists.

    and now for some -real- human rights violations.
    http://opinion.independentminds.livejournal.com/564624.html?thread=5217168#t5217168
    never heard of it eh?..

  47. Stef
    April 14, 2009    

    some more thoughts on Afghanistan.>

    “it’s not Afghans’ fault that there is war”
    http://in.reuters.com/article/domesticNews/idINISL49046920090413?rpc=401
    and the taleban are killing young people over supposed cheatings due to it? or is it a “culture” that needs to stay “pure”. i’d have no problem, just don’t give me the immigrants it produces.

    did the war cause islamic ethics? or is it poverty that makes you kill young people in your neighborhood because of your great religion? of course if i criticize islam i am a racist even though islam is not a race but if i say fuck the pope it’s old news..
    http://www.globaltv.com/globaltv/saskatoon/story.html?id=1492175
    ..

  48. April 14, 2009    

    I actually said (me deviousdiva not DevDiv etc)

    When we talk about seeking asylum in the first country you land in, we are talking about European law and neither Turkey or Iran are in Europe. When and if Turkey becomes a European country, we can call for correct procedure according to European law. Until then, Greece as a European country, MUST fulfill its obligations as they stand today.


    Please read my actual comment carefully!
    I am NOT saying that Turkey can do whatever it likes. I am saying that WHEN Turkey comes under European law, we can complain about it breaking EUROPEAN LAW. Greece is part of Europe and HAS signed off on many laws in respect to European and global human rights laws. It can be held accountable for breaking them.

    Stef, there IS a difference between what I am saying and what you accuse me of. I have NEVER said anything less than EVERYONE should respect Human Rights. Please do me the favour of actually reading my comments rather than reacting to things that you think are there.

  49. Stassa
    April 15, 2009    

    DeviousDiva: OK, thanks. Still, my bad.

    Stef. I’m sorry for the length of my comment but yours get quite big too.

    I am experiencing a strong urge to tell you to stop reading the Daily Mail. Cognitive dissonance, innit?

    If Sweden was a theocratic dictatorship i would feel bad for them as i feel for Iranis. do you get what i’m saying?

    Yep. Se piano. You think Greece is like Sweden. And that Greeks are like Swedes.

    And of course you misread my comment. I explained that people here in the UK don’t react to the colour of my skin, but to my Greek nationality which they associate with “brown” people, exactly because it’s “Eastern” or “Mediterrannean”. Because I’m Greek, they think I’m “brown” because I come from a culture of “brown people”. So when I tell them I’m Greek, it’s my culture they like or don’t like, instead of my person or my colour, which they don’t really look at, just like you say you do with immigrants in Greece. Well, you don’t say you don’t treat people as persons, but I’m not sure you’d even contest that.

    Nevertheless, you may well wish to shift the goalposts and try to accuse me of racism (which, incidentally, is not an accusation I am capable to refute entirely) but the fact remains that you perceive people not as individuals but as appendages to their culture, or their ethnicity, or whatever, without an independent perrsonality of their own. And of course you remain as ignorant of their cultures as of their persons. But why would you have a problem with that? That is such a Greek way of thinking, isn’t it?

    “Opoios elefthera syllogatai, syllogatai kala”.

    So you’ve freed your mind of prejudice and ignorance, you lived for a time among other people, worked among them and observed their way of life- and kow enough of it to wish them to stay away from your beautiful country, the best in the world. Am I right? Or when you say “you read” you mean “Plevris” and all the other learned gentlemen, as usual?

    Human life is valued in Greece? You been at a hospital lately? Or do you mean it’s valued in terms of money, as in fakelakia?

    About the old (bold yours) Europeans, Americans etc being fond of Greeks- again you are just making assumptions without real knowledge. In my experience, German families in the 60s and 70s regarded the marriage of their children to Greeks exactly like Greek families would regard the marriage of their children to Pakistanis today; good if it’s one of their girl our son is marrying, bad if it’s one of our daughters they take- but to be honest, things are never as simple as that, for good or bad. Which is one reason why your views are so off. There is no one rule that you can apply to peoples lives. Certainly not “genetic identity and cultural identity”.

    And yes, it is important how other people see us. It is important for you and everyone in Greece to get it into your heads that we may have learned at school that Greece is the best country, but people in other countries were taught their history, and their history is that theirs is the best country. And since not everyone can be right, I’m afraid you’re all wrong. There’s no best country and you’re not living in it. In fact, there are countries only in your head, but let’s take things a step at a time.

    As about my slavic descent- I said my features are slavic, not that I’m of slavic descent. There is this thing about the concept of race that you ignore: it’s a generalisation. You can find slavic features in people who are not slavs, like you can find African ones, or Asian ones or anything. Like you say, there have been red-haired Greeks from very old times. Yes, like there have been red-haired and blond Persians, blue-eyed Berbers, black-haired Finns and so on. And that proves- what? On the other hand, knowing that my grandparents were vlachoi, in the figurative sense, I have a strong reason to suspect they may have been so in the literal one too. In any case, my xorio, in the Peloponisos is called Souvardo (pano ap’ ta Kalavryta). Hardly a Greek name. So maybe I’m an Aromanian (like Rigas) or an Arvanitissa, in part at least. On my mothers side my grandparents are Corfiots and Mikrasiates. And that makes my culture- what?

    Seriously: when you say that you have a problem with immigrants with a different culture than yours, you mean the people who immigrated to Greece in the last 30 years and the “culture” that you have grown up with? ‘Cause if you go a couple of generations back, you’ll find enough cultural and ethnic diversity to boggle your mind for another three lifetimes.

    Anyway, since you’re so fond of pop science, consider this: migration of populations is a common phenomenon in the animal kingdom. It is why there are animals on every continent and humans in every part of the planet. It’s not going to end any time soon because you wish to keep your ill-perceived “cultural purity”, or any other purity. Historically, the fictitious limits of you imaginary national borders are unenforceable for any length of time. My best wish to you is to get used to it.

  50. Stassa
    April 15, 2009    

    DevDiva is defending Roma because she is Roma

    Told you. Subtle parameter and so on.

  51. Stef
    April 15, 2009    

    Greeks are far, far far from being “like Swedes”. Not that that’s bad.

    are you kidding me? i am the one who dragged individuals out of their culture. i specifically analized differences between culture and genes. you don’t get it. it isn’t the colour nor the perceived cultural weight that Bangladeshi people carry when they come to Greece. it is the actual cultural differences we witness with our own eyes as it is expressed by their way of living that is not combatible with mine nor yours. when me and old workers work at a construction for 50€/day and insurance for years now, it’s a pretty good deal for everyone. when the Bangladeshi works for 25 without insurance, because he is used to living a lower quality of life (by my standards. although i don’t negatively judge that), then can i work? who do you think the contractor will choose? can i change my life to be of lower quality? is that not a blackmail? that precisely is the way to make societies with high income inequality (gini coefficient) of few filthy rich and many filthy poor. that is not fantasy. it is happening. of course there is no way for you to know that. your societal analysis goes as far as being snobs against retards like Plevris. i have never ever in my whole life read or heard Plevris talk or read the Daily Mail. your ignorant parallel shows that you don’t really base your beliefs on facts but on trends and because you want to be on the other side of things people like plevris say and believe.

    you have no idea of what you’re talking about when you talk about Greece’s health system. it’s not perfect. anything that has to do with people about to die won’t be don’t you think?
    but it is among the best in the world. and yes believe it or not (i even have pics and vids of that on facebook) i had a serious viral infection a month ago and i was hospitalized in Patra, at a time in which the Agios Andreas hospital wasn’t working at all due to ongoing repairs -from the earthquake. so it was 200% overfull. doctors working way over duty and nurses changing those ????? things in lightning speed. but they analized even the slightest factor and even asked second opinions even though my disease could be treated without any drugs at all, at home and brought me to my full health – in my own room (after being in an annoying -too much lights and doctors passing by- drug-storing place for 2 -either way- painful days). they signed my insurance,i thank, and off i go.

    what annoyed me was people smoking in the cafeterias and the number of Roma beggars everywhere….

    i didn’t learn life in school. i was the kid making fun of christian miracles in the religion class. you don’t know me. about the old German thing, you should stop listening to crazy hippie Greek kids. ask a random old German in Germany.

    you probably don’t know what people Vlachs are and what language they speak. they are close to Romanians. Romans and Romanized people. and yes your ultimate origin means nothing. it’s all the exact same haplogroups we share. from Scotland to India. just different percentages of them.

    the fictitious borders you speak of are the reason you don’t live in a village of Pakistan but you live in a society other people made and other people preseved. if you are a “child of the world” you’d have no problem living there. it seems you like a society more than the other.

    i don’t have a problem with migration. i have a problem when lower societies dominate on higher ones.

  52. Jane
    July 23, 2014    

    Except not in canada.Canada lets anyone in from anywhere and they get rights equal or MORE to the local canadians here for centuries who built the country.

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